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Old 17th August 2014, 10:48 PM   #51
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
'more amps' = better quality amps which brought you closer to the sound of the original recording and showed you the better quality is audible.
As Pano implied, one can either aim for an amplifier which merely makes a small signal larger with no other audible effect or build an amp to be an effects box. I prefer the former, and that's a problem solved decades ago. So for my target... no, I have not heard any better-quality amps, since well-designed amps are audibly transparent.

If you're looking for an effects box, then "voicing" has a more sensible meaning. But IMO, it's often easier to achieve the same effects using other means.
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Old 17th August 2014, 11:04 PM   #52
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An accurate reproduction has to account for the different auditory environments of the recording and the playback so having a completely truth telling amp will make certain important recordings sound less enjoyable in your home. Please accept that a buyer of an audio system is often not aware of this when they put down their money to choose. Wouldn't it be great if their choice most closely reflected their listening preferences?

Pano
Yes, there is a very strong correlation between the quality of the power supply and that of the amps ability to reproduce the sound but what I am aiming to achieve is way for audiophiles and engineers to communicate better. That is the whole point of my framework and this thread. I'd like a world where you can select an audio system based on how you expect it produce your music, Some users love sharply defined, almost etched out instruments and are willing to sacrifice other sonic attributes to get this. There will be those who prefer timbrel perfection and will live with some slight slurring if the music is tonally perfect. Still others will demand the emotive content and let the rest be damned. Wouldn't it be great if we could pinpoint what electrical attributes correspond to the sonic attributes I put forward on this thread. We are not talking orders of magnitude in difference but nuances of emphasis.

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You guys seem to understand what I am trying to do and I thank you for it. I will assume that some of the audio giants have been reading this thread and if they haven't called foul on the three descriptive elements of sound by now, we are one step closer to sub-categorizing and accepting them as postulates. In the next step we will try correlating their electrical attributes.

Last edited by yldouright; 17th August 2014 at 11:17 PM.
 
Old 17th August 2014, 11:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I prefer the former, and that's a problem solved decades ago.
I don't believe that it was solved decades ago, and have not seen or heard proof of that. If it had been solved, then my guess is that all amps that aim at neutrality would be of the same topology. They aren't. Amps that aim to color the sound would be different, of course.

I will admit that most amps sound a lot alike on most speakers. But not everyone chooses 2 way monkey coffins or planar speakers.

Much of what I hear (I think) is power supply differences. Swapping out the power supply can have a big effect on the sound of an amp. Meaning that they aren't perfect, or they would sound the same. Since it isn't easy to swap out power supplies on many amps not a lot of people are aware of these differences. The DIY crowd should be ahead of everyone else in this matter.

Speakers make a vastly bigger difference than amps. But amps can and do sound different - even those considered blameless.

The PRAT thing is funny, partly because if its name, but also because most people think "How could an amp make a difference to THAT?" A couple of years back I read a very good technical explanation of the effect, but of course I'll never find it again.
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Old 17th August 2014, 11:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by yldouright View Post
In the next step we will try correlating their electrical attributes.
This is going to be epic.
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Old 18th August 2014, 12:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I don't believe that it was solved decades ago, and have not seen or heard proof of that. If it had been solved, then my guess is that all amps that aim at neutrality would be of the same topology.
Why would you expect that? There's a lot of different ways to make a quiet, flat, low distortion, low source impedance amp, and different engineers have taken different paths to the same result.
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Old 18th August 2014, 02:29 AM   #56
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Quote:
I presented three sound attributes that I believe to be universally descriptive
Clearly they are not.
Quote:
and offered up the opportunity for anyone reading to amend them.
That generous offer has been accepted and the answer was they are meaningless.
Of course, you can repost them lots of times and eventually *somebody* in this great Forum will agree with you.

Wait a second ... looks like that has already happened

OK, what do you suggest now, we take a vote?

Quote:
If you can't show how they are not universally descriptive then the logical fallacy is yours.
WRONG, the one who proposes extraordinary thesis is the one who carries the burden of the proof.

Which in this case would be Mr Yldoyouright .
 
Old 18th August 2014, 02:48 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Much of what I hear (I think) is power supply differences.
+1.

When I started fiddling with amps I was rather sceptical that power supplies would be so important to amps. The evidence presented by listening overcame my prior scepticism. ISTM from experiments with various chipamps that power supply impedance is crucial, I get a more satisfying sound from a stiffer supply. Most amp's supplies aren't particularly low impedance in the LF region (at 50Hz a 3300uF cap is around 1ohm - few amps have >10X this capacitance on their rails).

Given the same supply I was also gobsmacked by how much difference to the PRaT was made by going to classD from classB. Then I had a minor 'lightbulb' moment and realized its probably caused by classD making so much better use of the power supply. Having a switching output stage means the average current drawn from the supply is greatly reduced, reducing the associated sag. Going to classD then has the effect of multiplying up the rail capacitance seen by the amp.

My hypothesis is the 'PRaT' is related to how much noise is sent back into the supply caps by the output stage switching currents.
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Last edited by abraxalito; 18th August 2014 at 02:50 AM.
 
Old 18th August 2014, 03:24 AM   #58
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Welcome to my humble thread. I will assume that you have read the entire thread so I will ask you some questions based on the content up to this point to gauge the level of your cynicism. Do humor them:

Does PRAT exist in music?

On a recording and playback of music, does PRAT become represented by an electrical signal?

Are the electrical signals representing PRAT processed by an amplification circuit and delivered to a loudspeaker?

Given your replies, is it unreasonable to make a logical assumption that different amplifier configurations (ie: power supplies, devices, circuits and topologies) might have different effects on this sonic attribute?

Would you agree that music is generally made with instruments and performers that have unique sonic signatures?

Would you agree that these sonic signatures are fairly complex frequency waveforms that are difficult, if not downright impossible to duplicate synthetically?

Isn't it rather subjective that a typical engineer believes duplicating a single frequency waveform accurately guarantees that multiple simultaneous complex waveforms of varying levels will also be produced accurately?

Do you have a better terminology than timbrel accuracy to describe the reproduction of these multiple simultaneous complex waveforms?

Are you familiar with wind (the regular kind, not the kind that comes from intellectual haughtiness)?

How do you know it's real?

Did you make any suppositions reaching this conclusion?

Are you basing your proof of wind on these suppositions?

No further questions your honor.

Last edited by yldouright; 18th August 2014 at 03:28 AM.
 
Old 18th August 2014, 11:03 AM   #59
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You don't "voice" "an amplifier and or audio playback system" - you aim to reduce the level of disturbing, audible distortion ... if you do that with insight and understanding then excellent levels of "soundstaging, timbral accuracy and PRaT" all automatically fall into place ... all the mumbo jumbo of normal hifi 'talk' then goes down the gurgler, which is where it deserves to be ..
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Old 18th August 2014, 11:10 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yldouright View Post

Does PRAT exist in music?

On a recording and playback of music, does PRAT become represented by an electrical signal?

Are the electrical signals representing PRAT processed by an amplification circuit and delivered to a loudspeaker?

Given your replies, is it unreasonable to make a logical assumption that different amplifier configurations (ie: power supplies, devices, circuits and topologies) might have different effects on this sonic attribute?
Yes.

Sort of, not directly.

Sort of, not directly.

Yes, unless one deliberately does some very complex contortions (e.g., low frequency delay lines, a class D amp with a swinging clock...).
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