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Old 2nd June 2014, 04:42 AM   #11
JoeDJ is offline JoeDJ  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Gregg View Post
The way I see it,

Open is space between the instruments etc in a sound stage between speakers.

Transparent is the clarity with which the instruments or voice can be heard in the soundstage.

Veiled is not being able to hear the sound of an instrument or voice clearly.

Smear is not being able to hear the position of instruments or clear voice.

Have a look at the ledr tests

Online LEDR Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

The ideal is a transparent sound with good soundstage (positioning of instruments) with enough smear so rubbish recordings don't sound to bad..

Regards
M. Gregg
Al those terms can be combined into two phrases ........
"Low distortion" and "flat freq response"
.
Unless you know what gives you 'transparency" etc, how can you obtain it ?
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Old 2nd June 2014, 06:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
I think that equipment reviewers try so hard to hear small on non-existent differences that when a real difference comes along, it's automatically labeled as good
Hi and i agree.
When i read words like ... hash, grain, myst, haze etc. i get nervous.
Or parts selection by ear ... this is very annoying.
IMH experience every time i heard some problems with the sound this was completely explainable with some analysis of the components in the chain.
And often it was an issue of matching, expecially amp with speakers.
Kind regards, gino
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Old 2nd June 2014, 06:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Gregg View Post
The way I see it,
Open is space between the instruments etc in a sound stage between speakers.
Transparent is the clarity with which the instruments or voice can be heard in the soundstage.
Veiled is not being able to hear the sound of an instrument or voice clearly.
Smear is not being able to hear the position of instruments or clear voice.
Have a look at the ledr tests
Online LEDR Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test
The ideal is a transparent sound with good soundstage (positioning of instruments) with enough smear so rubbish recordings don't sound to bad..
Regards
M. Gregg
Hi and thanks for the advice.
I am very basic ... there are things i cannot accept easily.
Like distortion presence ... a unit cannot be called "transparent" if it show high levels of distortion.
I think he was a speakers designer who said that if a speaker measures good than you do not have to test it by listening, because the sound must be good as well.
I agree. Right measurements tell it all.
Kind regards, gino
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Old 2nd June 2014, 07:47 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeDJ View Post
Al those terms can be combined into two phrases ........
"Low distortion" and "flat freq response"
You wish. To have those things one has to have good DDR.I have yet to see anything that measures that really measures that.

dave
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Old 2nd June 2014, 07:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
... a unit cannot be called "transparent" if it show high levels of distortion
it can't. But what we measure as distortion is but a small subset of all distortion. And we have little understanding of the relation between these distortions & what the ear/brain perceives. Complicated by a huge range ofears/brains.

We do know that THD has little-to-no correlation. Looking at the actual harmonics can give some clues, but that is open to interpretation. And of allthe possible ways of sussing out harmonic distortion what we measure is a very small subset of how the device is actually used.

dave
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Old 2nd June 2014, 10:36 AM   #16
DF96 is online now DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10
But what we measure as distortion is but a small subset of all distortion. And we have little understanding of the relation between these distortions & what the ear/brain perceives.
How do we know it is a "small subset"? By definition, all these other alleged distortions are unknown so how do we know how many of them there are?

Quote:
We do know that THD has little-to-no correlation.
No we don't. We know that THD has some correlation with perceived reproduction quality. We also know that preferred sound quality has (for some people) weak correlation wth reproduction quality.
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Old 2nd June 2014, 11:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
it can't.
But what we measure as distortion is but a small subset of all distortion.
And we have little understanding of the relation between these distortions & what the ear/brain perceives.
Complicated by a huge range ofears/brains.
We do know that THD has little-to-no correlation. Looking at the actual harmonics can give some clues, but that is open to interpretation.
And of all the possible ways of sussing out harmonic distortion what we measure is a very small subset of how the device is actually used.
dave
Thanks a lot for your valuable advice.
Still i would like to make a brave comparison.
Between watching and hearing experience.
When an object is out of focus its shape is distorted and the brain makes an effort to understand what kind of object really is.
For me the same is when hearing sounds.
When the sounds are distorted the brain struggles to identify/locate the instruments that have generated them.
One very simple test is with speech recognition, a test that i value very highly also for evaluating stereo systems quality.
If the voice is distorted is very difficult to understand the words ... this is not good. The viceversa also applies.
Usually systems that have excellent speech rendition are also very low in distortion ... and i would bet that they would be equally good with music tracks.
For instance listening to a very good recording of a person speaking if i close my eyes i should be fooled to hear the real person speaking in front of me ... more or less.
Thanks and regards, gino

Last edited by ginetto61; 2nd June 2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2014, 03:24 PM   #18
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Way back in 1990 J. Gordon Holt (RIP) wrote a small book "The Audio Glossary". Later Stereophile magazine posted a glossary web-page. (I don't have the current link). Those above words are in the book.
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Old 2nd June 2014, 06:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
How do we know it is a "small subset"? By definition, all these other alleged distortions are unknown so how do we know how many of them there are?
Just deduction. What we are measuring now is not telling us the story, systems are not perfect (and all the same) so there is more we can'r yet quantify.

Quote:
No we don't. We know that THD has some correlation with perceived reproduction quality. We also know that preferred sound quality has (for some people) weak correlation wth reproduction quality.
Lots of counter examples to that. Only at the grossest levels does THD correlate with perceived quality.

dave
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Old 2nd June 2014, 10:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
Way back in 1990 J. Gordon Holt (RIP) wrote a small book "The Audio Glossary". Later Stereophile magazine posted a glossary web-page. (I don't have the current link). Those above words are in the book.
At least one version, here: Sounds Like? An Audio Glossary | Stereophile.com

Nicely put together, I find it self-consistent ...
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