why don't they sell their caps already burned in anyway? why pass that responsibility to the unsuspecting costumers?
i think the reason for that could be that even if they tell end users that their caps are already burned in, still there will be those who will insist they burn in the caps themselves...😀
i think the reason for that could be that even if they tell end users that their caps are already burned in, still there will be those who will insist they burn in the caps themselves...😀
And if Mundorf (I know nothing about them except that they make some components) is anything like some of the unscrupulous companies that cater to audiophiles, that burn-in could actually consist of them rubbing their hands together in glee at the extra $ they got just before placing them in the shipping container.
there is money to be made from people's gullibility....😀
in a local hifi show, i saw a speaker system with passive cross-over network case in a clear plexi glass casing showing the Mundorfs inside, leads coming out of the casing to the drivers...what a show off....😀
in a local hifi show, i saw a speaker system with passive cross-over network case in a clear plexi glass casing showing the Mundorfs inside, leads coming out of the casing to the drivers...what a show off....😀
In typical diyAudio fashion, the negative and completely 'off subject' (trolling?) responses to the original posters query has once again derailed it to provide a platform for a lot of people to indulge in their favourite hobby of criticising anything outside the basic engineering manuals
The original poster asked a simple question -
how can I burn in caps without installing them in my equipment?
and also -
Please, I don't want to start a big deal on the merits of burning in a cap. So please, If you think it's stupid, I appreciate your opinion, but please don't comment here
So, would the Moderators keep all these 'foreign posts' out of this thread and transfer them over to the 'snake oil' thread, or where their comments are appropriate/relevant
The original poster asked a simple question -
how can I burn in caps without installing them in my equipment?
and also -
Please, I don't want to start a big deal on the merits of burning in a cap. So please, If you think it's stupid, I appreciate your opinion, but please don't comment here
So, would the Moderators keep all these 'foreign posts' out of this thread and transfer them over to the 'snake oil' thread, or where their comments are appropriate/relevant
When asked a specific technical question, specific technical answers are given. You may not like those answers, but those are the answers. There are many places on the internet where technical opinions are restricted or censored- diyAudio is not one of them, which perhaps explains why it's the biggest and best site out there dealing with audio design, construction, and technology.
Well you answered the OP, wasn't that enough info for him by your own standards?
Also in my opinion your answer could be included in the snake oil thread so touche 😀
FREE and open debate...many other forums have banned objective views, that is censorship and is only used when the truth is not wanted, having a myriad of views is more educational, if you have an open enough mind to go and study, research and be prepared to alter ones viewpoint.
Must read further before I answer in haste, as Sy has already stated the same thing.
What would be nice would be some links to some reel research and information on what cable and capacitor break in does, as it does only seem to exist in certain areas of Audio...
What would be nice would be some links to some reel research and information on what cable and capacitor break in does, as it does only seem to exist in certain areas of Audio...
As a sceptical engineer, I'll admit that I'd forgotten about the possibility of capacitors mechanically oscillating at high signal levels. They're transducers, converting voltage into mechanical stresses, and that causes havoc in all kinds of ways.
Using a typical passive crossover powered by a class-AB amp, I was surprised to hear a clear difference between MKT and MKP caps, with a lot of 'hash' from the MKT ones. The dielectric constant is higher for MKT and when that's the case it's also usually less linear, but I thought that with a sufficiently high voltage rating it shouldn't make a difference. So what was happening?
My intuition tells me that the bigger issue is how much crossover distortion the capacitor creates. Even if the driving signal is a pure sine wave, if there's no DC bias, the amount of stored energy will resemble a rectified sine wave with lots of harmonics. Like any good transducer, the capacitor will feed those harmonics back to the speaker and the amp's feedback circuitry. This could even explain some other voodoo like people claiming that their esoteric amplifiers sound better despite the high output impedance or high distortion.
While thrashing some capacitors with a test signal might alter or stabilise their characteristics, I don't see any obvious way in which they could meaningfully get better. I'd try something different like running a bridged amp configuration and playing around with the PSUs to get a DC offset. The mids/woofers are probably a lost cause, but at least the DC blocking caps for the tweeters will be running linearly for once.
I was of the opinion cap 'singing' was the result of poor winding that leaves minute air gaps for the film to vibrate in. Just my own theory though.
The Clarity Cap MR research AES paper suggests poor winding caused distortion in at least one test specimen at around 14 kHz. The 'fix' for cap mech. resonances they came up with was improved winding.
The Clarity Cap MR research AES paper suggests poor winding caused distortion in at least one test specimen at around 14 kHz. The 'fix' for cap mech. resonances they came up with was improved winding.
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That's pretty much it. You can also have effects from electrostriction, but that's a lot more rare and exotic in the audio world. PTFE is likely more susceptible than PP because of the poor mechanical properties.
Hmm, OK. Just thinking out loud here... when compressed or stretched, the air would be non-linear and would lose energy as heat, so that seems legit. But if that's the case then it's just another source of the same kind of distortion and the DC bias fix should still help.
What do you guys think about stacked capacitors versus rolled ones?
I would venture that the cap manufacturers do not burn in their caps because of the additional cost vs potential earnings.
If they have to invest in equipment to burn in the caps, and they have to perform the burn in for any reasonable amount of time (days? Weeks?), then the cost would be prohibative.
If they have to invest in equipment to burn in the caps, and they have to perform the burn in for any reasonable amount of time (days? Weeks?), then the cost would be prohibative.
I guess I don't see that. The equipment cost is low (a power amp, signal source, and jig/rack) and is amortized over the number of caps before the equipment is no longer usable (probably a long time, irrespective of depreciation). You can easily do 100 or more caps at a time. The costs are basically fixed cost for the factory space, the labor cost for loading and unloading the jig, and depreciation.
I can do some estimated numbers if you like, but there's a LOT of margin to play with in the "fashion" market niche. For "standard" caps, the margins are lower and there's zero perceived value added, since (e.g.) a telecom company engineering department will not be staffed with voodoo-worshipers.
I can do some estimated numbers if you like, but there's a LOT of margin to play with in the "fashion" market niche. For "standard" caps, the margins are lower and there's zero perceived value added, since (e.g.) a telecom company engineering department will not be staffed with voodoo-worshipers.
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