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Old 6th February 2014, 03:53 AM   #21
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Never heard the Tidal , only tried the drivers , IMO , SEAS make very good drivers for the money with very good reliability...

Edit: I looked at the Tidals , those drivers look different from the ones i tried moons back , i remember a white ceramic look ...

Last edited by a.wayne; 6th February 2014 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 6th February 2014, 04:20 AM   #22
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Never heard the Tidal , only tried the drivers , IMO , SEAS make very good drivers for the money with very good reliability...

Edit: I looked at the Tidals , those drivers look different from the ones i tried moons back , i remember a white ceramic look ...
..same drivers, OEM color change on the later models.

I'm not fond of most of the Seas drivers either - still to over-damped, while lacking some of the clarity that the Accutons have. (..but at least I've never heard them sound "zippy" with an emphasis on the leading edge.. or "bottomed-out" sounding either - both traits I've heard in TIDAL loudspeakers.)

Some of the Zellatons (like the Gorlich I mentioned) can have Accuton clarity with good tone.. the only problem is that most of their drivers have mediocre suspensions and higher non-linear distortion.

I suppose if I needed high power handling and/or a smaller cabinet for the quasi-Raptor I mentioned, I'd probably spec. the Visaton TIW 250 XS.

TIW 250 XS - 8 Ohm

Visaton has some of the best suspensions - with uniformly low non-linear distortion. The honeycomb core glass diaphragm should provide plenty of detail up to 800 Hz (..if perhaps not quite what the Gorlich drivers can provide).

I should also note that Accuton has some new bass drivers that will be available "soon" (not ceramic, but honeycomb core with aluminum skins):

http://www.accuton.de/company/index....&m2=15#news_23
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Last edited by ScottG; 6th February 2014 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 6th February 2014, 04:31 AM   #23
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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That Visaton driver looks interesting, good xmax, whats the cost..? That driver is too big for a two way , 8 is the biggest i would go , with 6.5 being optimum to me...
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Old 6th February 2014, 05:07 AM   #24
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
That Visaton driver looks interesting, good xmax, whats the cost..? That driver is too big for a two way , 8 is the biggest i would go , with 6.5 being optimum to me...
around 300 US, similar to the Excel 10" I believe.

The Raptor has a crossover around 750 Hz (and "steep").. so at least with a design similar to that it should be more than acceptable:
Attached Images
File Type: gif Raptor3Mon-axisin-room.gif (96.6 KB, 207 views)
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Last edited by ScottG; 6th February 2014 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 6th February 2014, 05:46 AM   #25
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It's good to know the Topicstarter has some friends who are really good at designing a X-over. I was under the impression this was a first project. Hence my "joke" about try taming Dayton/ Amt. My apologies for beeing so harsh. Do spend enormous amounts on space age materials to get a better speaker than Magico and Kharma. The visaton ceramic tweeter should be rather good / albeit on a budget. All the luck with this high end speaker. I think there is a good reason most ceramic / metal / hard cone drivers have so so suspension, highish Rms. Imho the suspension is used to dampen the ringing.

Last edited by Phenoholic Anonymus; 6th February 2014 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 6th February 2014, 06:40 AM   #26
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
unless it has changed over the years the coloration on the accuton type drivers were unacceptable to me , very unnatural sounding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
This depends a lot on the crossover and loading.. but most designs I've heard using them. A few however..
Stiff cones (magnesium, aluminum, glass, ceramic, diamond, beryllium) will easily sound unnatural and fatiguing. Paper is the easiest to work with but also has the least potential for resolution.

Wayne, is there any speaker with ceramic cone that sound good to you? We can regard that as "reference" of what ceramic can do.

I love stiff cones
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Old 6th February 2014, 07:58 AM   #27
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoholic Anonymus View Post

Imho it goes like this: paper and softdome, don't need steep
x-overs, sounds very natural, but lacks detail. Ceramics, metal
woofers and tweeters. Lots of detail, sadly the higher order
x-over kills the impuls / phase response.
Details are not a cone break-up or its material byproduct.
If one would like to think about details which are coming
from recorded music, than one place where details
conversion happens is the place where voice coil lives.

I remember very well a comparison I made between a
magnetostat tweeter and a high quality silk dome.

Magneto had a very lightweight foil and according to factory
strong NeFeB magnets, but boy did that driver swallow
details like crazy. Secondly, its resonant frequency was
so poorly controlled, like I had bought a 3 dollar product
which had to be compensated by a XO filter. The soft dome
did exactly the opposite. Lots of details, no problem with
weak magnet. Dome without any peaks what so ever.

Regarding your thinking on higher order filters killing the
impulse response, that is a one big wrong conclusion. The
good sound does not come from the perfect looking impulse
plot, morelike from great integration of the drivers used without
any peaks and dips. If the superb looks of driver's impulse
response with no XO parts installed is a perfection, then
why do people bother making XO filters? The so called
ringing of the impulse with higher order filters produces
steeper response slopes and that is it. IMO
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Old 6th February 2014, 08:21 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenoholic Anonymus View Post
That cone for the ATD 7" is supposed to be a curvilinear Titanium sandwich structure.
It is not the same as what the Gorlich/Zellaton drivers use.

Later,
Wolf
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Old 6th February 2014, 09:42 AM   #29
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Found the pic googling for ATD zellaton

Lojzek, I don't think detail is the same as breakup. Afaik it's pistonic movement that brings detail out in the harder cones. About crossover's ringing, impulse this is what i ment:
Siri's Killer Note

Last edited by Phenoholic Anonymus; 6th February 2014 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 6th February 2014, 09:59 AM   #30
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Phenoholic,

the movement is what transfers the details out, but its the force
that makes it move. I will take a look at Troel's text later.
I told you how it works in reality. Try working with scan speak
mid drivers and you will appretiate higher order filters because
I know not of any better way to building up pressure in region
where it does not exist with lower orders and this is what makes
it sound excellent.
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