Can the human ear really localize bass? - Page 3 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th December 2013, 05:49 PM   #21
Bill F. is offline Bill F.  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Bill F.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SW MI
Quote:
Originally Posted by badman View Post
(note the fallacy of disproof).
Fallacy of disproof noted. Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 05:50 PM   #22
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill F. View Post
My dear W/Tarragon, if we cannot expect Wikipedia and Google to deliver the known universe into our laps, then are we not a lost generation????

Let me try to reiterate my question:
Does anyone know of a scientific study quantifying the average human ability to locate sound sources--in azimuth or in elevation--over the range of frequencies between, say, 50Hz and 300Hz?
Yes, we are bcoming a lost generation.

Over the bandwidth you are talking about, the vertical / elevation thresholds will be pretty much unmeasurable.

As far as localization in the horizontal, then thresholds will be a few to several degrees at the the upper range (300 Hz) and fall rapidly as you go down frequency (at least 10-20 degrees, if not more, at 200 Hz or so). At 50 Hz they would be unmeasurable, although there may be some artfacts due to measurement problems (listener actively moving around for instance).

Last edited by WithTarragon; 16th December 2013 at 05:57 PM. Reason: ....
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 05:54 PM   #23
flg is offline flg  United States
diyAudio Member
 
flg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: North East
Well, I seem to remember one... I'm 55 though, and I remember it being in the 50's and I believe it was RCA who did it. Back when I found out, if you didn't have a library card you didn't know anything! Where are we now?
Results were that below 250Hz, humans loose that ability. Based on that, the woofer could be center channel and mono in a theater and no one would notice or care!
No links, no copy, just my old 2Cents???
__________________
"It was the perfect high end audio product: Exotic, inefficient, expensive, unavailable, and toxic." N.P.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 06:04 PM   #24
Bill F. is offline Bill F.  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Bill F.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SW MI
Thanks, guys. Though, as Wikipedia would say: [citation needed]!

However, since most of your unsubstantiated opinions seem to match my own baseless biases, I am willing to accept them into evidence.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 06:12 PM   #25
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill F. View Post
Thanks, guys. Though, as Wikipedia would say: [citation needed]!

However, since most of your unsubstantiated opinions seem to match my own baseless biases, I am willing to accept them into evidence.
If my memory is not a substitute for the gospel truth, then the references would start with Mills "On the minimum audible angle" (JASA, 1958) and continue from there. That was a classic paper and a "must read" for new grad students back many years ago.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 06:23 PM   #26
Bill F. is offline Bill F.  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Bill F.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SW MI
Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!

Many thanks, WT, for the citation. (Not to impugn the value of your memory, of course!)
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 06:56 PM   #27
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Novi, Michigan
Bill

I have always agreed with your hypothesis and often stated so around here. There are a lot of people who just don't want to believe that it is true no matter what kind of logic and data one presents. I see you also get the classic "Well then prove its not!" line - the classic cop-out.

It is only reasonable that as the frequency falls the differences in level and timing at the two ears must vanish. This is simple physics. As such the spatial resolving power of our two ear system must also vanish. What is not so clear is the speed that this happens. I think that WithTarragon has it correct in that the resolution is pretty well gone at 50 Hz and pretty well apparent at 300 Hz. My question would be "is this in a free field?" where I would certainly assume that it has to be (otherwise what are the conditions?) That means that adding in the effect a small room has - the fact that the sound is now arriving at all kinds of different angles within even a ms. - and the resolution cannot possibly go up - it has to go down. Hence for me, I would find that LF localization in a small room would be pretty poor up to about 100 Hz. It will improve up until the spatial resolution is dominated by the rooms early reflections (which limit the spatial resolution at higher frequencies, aka imaging.)

Now the LF resolution I have stated above assumes a reverberant field. If one is close to the source then there are near-field and direct-field effects that could be more audible than the reverberant field effects. For example, there could be differences in level at the two ears from the 6 dB falloff with distance, or near-field phase effects that differ at the two ears.

Last edited by gedlee; 16th December 2013 at 07:07 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 07:09 PM   #28
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sjślland, Denmark
A tiny note on this often discussed subject. As far as I know there is solid evidence to the effect that it is not possible to locate sound sources that play pure sine waves below a certain frequency - say 60-80Hz or thereabouts. But the ear is extremely sensitive to any impulse (we needed to be when we ran about in the woods as hunters and gatherers!) - i.e. a sound stopping or starting. And music rarely consists of pure sine wave sound. First off: Most musical notes (bar perhaps pedal notes from organs) have a distinct "attack" (i.e. impulse) when the tone is initiated. Secondly: There are always harmonics. What this might amount to is 1) we'll locate where a low note stops or starts - and 2) we can easily locate the source of the third harmonic of the c. 40 Hz low string of a double bas - thus with a single subwoofer placed somewhere between the two side systems the ear-brain combination will notice the stopping/starting of a note somewhere between the speakers and the location of the harmonics somewhere else. If all this is true it spells a confused ear-brain-combination.
I remember vaguely having read a paper outlining these thoughts, but I am sorry to say that I don't have the slightest recollection of any bibliographical details. Yet, it may all be wrong - the fact remains, though, that I have never ever experienced a system with a single subwoofer that performed convincingly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 07:17 PM   #29
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
gedlee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Novi, Michigan
Klarsov

The "attack" or impulsive part of any sound is not LF. The "transient" portion of any source of sound is therefor going to be audible because of its HF content. But that is not the question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 07:34 PM   #30
diyAudio Member
 
Philosophil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Not meaning to muddy things even further, but wouldn't distance be relevant here? Might it be easier to localize lower frequencies the more distant they are (e.g. the distant rumble of thunder from the west) and perhaps more difficult to do the same the more proximate the source?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Human Hearing silverhairbp Markaudio 7 11th February 2013 10:15 AM
The human race? M Gregg The Lounge 61 18th November 2012 09:30 AM
Human? MagnumOpus Multi-Way 8 13th March 2012 11:52 AM
In ear canal phones vs Around the Ear Speakers amp question haroldo_psf Chip Amps 1 21st September 2009 12:16 PM
Human Speakers ryewoods Multi-Way 15 23rd September 2007 06:46 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:04 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2