Ahh yes, yet another in depth review of a product Mr Atkinson is comparing to a 10 year old iPod 
I guess iPods are the only game in town when it comes to a portable player
Astell&Kern AK100 portable media player | Stereophile.com
So for only $699 you get a portable player that does NOT have gap less playback and the bonus is the output impedance is a whopping 22 ohms so any head phone you use is going to have it's frequency response varied all over the place. It does play Hi-Rez files though because we all know just how "horrid" FLAC files sound. Last time I checked, my Sansa Clip using Rockbox does gap less playback plus FLAC capability and it's output impedance is low but heh it's not pricey enough for those that have $699 burning a hole in their pocket
So how come the more an audio component costs, the less capable it is sometimes?
I guess iPods are the only game in town when it comes to a portable player Astell&Kern AK100 portable media player | Stereophile.com
So for only $699 you get a portable player that does NOT have gap less playback and the bonus is the output impedance is a whopping 22 ohms so any head phone you use is going to have it's frequency response varied all over the place. It does play Hi-Rez files though because we all know just how "horrid" FLAC files sound. Last time I checked, my Sansa Clip using Rockbox does gap less playback plus FLAC capability and it's output impedance is low but heh it's not pricey enough for those that have $699 burning a hole in their pocket
So how come the more an audio component costs, the less capable it is sometimes?
If you read the review, you will see that all the comparisons I described were with a 2010-vintage iPod Classic 160GB. I have no idea how that equates to a "10 year old iPod."
Again if you read the review, you will that I both addressed this and pointed out that the most recent firmware upgrade (not available when I wrote this review at the beginning of May) should allow gapless playback.
Again, I addressed this in some depth in my review. The variations in frequency response with the in-ear monitors I tried were not as large as has been reported elsewhere.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
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John, 22Ω output impedance creates non-linear FR with IEMs (particularly multidriver, like my JH13) that can present significantly less than 10Ω at low frequencies and have passive XO, thus have Z that varies significantly with frequency; fact
an industry has already sprung up supplying mods for a few hundred additional dollars, for something that is unacceptable in the first place for a device of this price. the error in design shows ignorance of the market
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And as I wrote but perhaps you didn't read, I addressed this matter in-depth in my review, including a discussion of the response variations with the IEMS I had to hand.
An "industry"? Perhaps I am missing something but the only company that I know of offering the mod is Red Wine Audio. The mod is labor-intensive, hence expensive, as it involves working on the surface-mount board.
I discussed this with A&K: their choice of a 22 ohm impedance was a deliberate design decision to eliminate the possibility of short-circuiting the output. One can argue with that decision, but I don't think it is correct to call it an "error."
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I know very well what its for, its still dumb. its an example of blindly following the datasheet, which in itself is likely produced by a designer that still follows recommendations from when headphones were not so low impedance and didnt have crossovers, or is following the advice of his lawyer. you can provide this protection without making it much less than optimal for the predominant type of headphones that it will be used with. hint, close the feedback loop around the output resistor… or make your design more rugged some other way
yes, industry, cottage sure… but in as much as the player itself has a userbase, the output impedance is an area of concern and rightly so. talk to your friends at RWA, who supply said mod
its annoying, because these companies keep making this same mistake over and over and over, regular players have mostly solved it, or are shunned by high end IEM users (anyone who doesnt want to use a portable amp anyway), so when you make a high end standalone player in 2012-13, it is expected you should be aware of this long standing issue.
even the tests using the very headphones they promote to go with it, the HD25, appear to exhibit the problem somewhat (objectively anyway)
and another thing, i'm an iriver user I use a modified iHP120 user (solid state memory and battery upgrade). I use the digital output, which would be the only way I would have considered using the new players, but at these prices… nope, especially after getting rid of the wired remote, some sort of wireless remote would have made me forget my other concerns, as they dont effect me using digital. The remote is awesome if you use a portable DAC/AMP
yes, industry, cottage sure… but in as much as the player itself has a userbase, the output impedance is an area of concern and rightly so. talk to your friends at RWA, who supply said mod
its annoying, because these companies keep making this same mistake over and over and over, regular players have mostly solved it, or are shunned by high end IEM users (anyone who doesnt want to use a portable amp anyway), so when you make a high end standalone player in 2012-13, it is expected you should be aware of this long standing issue.
even the tests using the very headphones they promote to go with it, the HD25, appear to exhibit the problem somewhat (objectively anyway)
and another thing, i'm an iriver user I use a modified iHP120 user (solid state memory and battery upgrade). I use the digital output, which would be the only way I would have considered using the new players, but at these prices… nope, especially after getting rid of the wired remote, some sort of wireless remote would have made me forget my other concerns, as they dont effect me using digital. The remote is awesome if you use a portable DAC/AMP
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So they went out of their way to make an awful decision and built a product that is not up to snuff. Okay so it's not an error just a flaw. For the money it's not acceptable.
How about comparing it to this? SanDisk Sansa Clip+ Plus Review Anything But iPod for the price and features it puts iPod to shame
Oh and check out the rest of the website , you might learn what is really out there besides iPods and silly costly players
No response from DavidL admitting his error. Perhaps he doesn't see why his statement that I used a "10 year old" iPod is just plain incorrect?
Yes it is inexpensive. But it doesn't play files with resolutions greater than 16 bits and sample rates greater than 48kHz. Neither does the 2010 iPod I used in my review, of course, but I would wager that many many more of my readers will be familiar with the iPod than with the SanDisk player.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
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From my review: If you look at the measured impedance of the JH16 Pro, this averages 13 ohms in the lower midrange and bass, rising to 35 ohms at 2kHz, then dropping to 12 ohms at 7kHz. This will modify the headphones' frequency response by –2.6dB in the bass and midrange, +1.8dB in the low treble, then –3dB in the high treble. Similarly, the Ultimate Ears 18 Pro average 18 ohms in the lower midrange and bass, and 11 ohms between 8 and 10kHz, rising to 30 ohms in the low treble. With both of these in-ear monitors, this variation in impedance will shelve down the lower mids and bass compared with the low treble when driven by the AK100—but more so with the JH16 Pro than with the 18 Pro, where the bass and lower midrange will be suppressed by 0.9dB and the low treble emphasized by 1.2dB.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Lets not get started about "admitting his error" or we will be here all day listening to your history. Seriously you want to go there?
Shall we discuss your little lecture you once gave about digital jitter? Hmmmmm? No I think not.Your "readers" only read what you tell them so of course they don't know about better players. Care to do a listening shootout with the Sansa Clip vs Whatever? you can even do a blind listening test. Hmm but you don't believe in blind listening tests so any type of objective listening test is out.
This is not a convincing argument.
John, a couple of graphs might have been a nice complement to the verbiage. Pardon my ignorance (I hardly ever use headphones), but how many of the "serious" headphones have high impedance (let's say 200 ohms nominal or more) versus low impedance?
almost none, especially ones you might use a portable player with
the trend is actually towards lower and lower. you'll find extremely few over 50Ω and the majority 32 and under. with some of the custom IEMs having a nominal impedance of 16Ω, thus lower again than Johns numbers. regarding my less than 10Ω statement, my apologies for the mistake, I use mine balanced, so the apparent impedance is half the numbers John posted.
John regarding surface mount, everything is surface mount now, everything I build is SMD, but it can almost double the cost of the (already pricey). that wasnt the point of that comment though, having supplied similar services before in the past its a pita, but it shouldnt be needed. why they didnt supply a line out in the first place when the h120 did ~20years ago and the trend is more and more towards such things; is baffling.
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BeyerDynamics come in a choice of 80 or 250 Ohm.
Sennheiser and AKG come usually in at 50-70 Ohm.
Audio Technica come in around 40 Ohm.
When I looked I only looked at headphones you would find in a studio (over ear, closed back) and in the £100-200 price brackets. 40 to 80 Ohm is typical.
I ended up with BeyerDynamic DT770Pro at 250 Ohm as they had the best sound to my ears.
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Lets not get started about "admitting his error" or we will be here all day listening to your history. Seriously you want to go there?StereoEditor said:
I don't understand what your problem is, DavidL. You started this thread with a post containing two criticisms of my Astell&Kern review in Stereophile, one of which was that I compared it with a "ten year old" iPod. I have now twice pointed out that that criticism is incorrect, that I used a 2010 iPod, but you have refused to acknowledge that your statement was wrong.
My apologies but I don't recall any lecture I gave on "digital jitter." I have given many lectures on many subjects over the years, but not one on this subject. Could you tel me know when and where it took place, please.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
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