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Old 16th April 2013, 04:40 AM   #31
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Aahh, there's the rub! Easy to say ... very, very difficult to achieve. To me, virtually every system I listen to is "defective", the problems scream at me ...
Of course, even live shows are defective. But people still come to the show without problems screaming at them.

Like in my case, during this month I have been listening to music through my cheap handphone, and yes, MP3. And cheap TDA2030A. But I don't have a problem with that (if I do may be I would have pulled out my best sources and amps). But I can't stand listening to my headphones and some of my speakers.

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Yes, highly efficient speakers are an excellent shortcut. The MBLs are precision powerhouses, the best measurements I've seen at Stereophile for power amps
Low frequency is one of important aspect of high-end sound. Without those low frequency, our system is NOT complete, and probably not good enough.

To produce this low frequency we need large cone. Use of box to augment the low frequency is one common but imperfect method (especially TL ).

Most of the LF drivers are power hungry. So there's nothing a first watt amp can do about it.

But why rely on measurements if it doesn't guarantee anything we need. The measurement tools cannot detect if an opamp exist in the audio chain. Actually, the measurement is good probably because of an opamp in the audio chain.
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Old 16th April 2013, 04:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post

To produce this low frequency we need large cone. Use of box to augment the low frequency is one common but imperfect method (especially TL ).
Wrong. The purpose of the box it to take control of what happens in the vicinity of the resonant frequency. It happens also that it makes available an in-phase usable output that sums to the regular emission.
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Old 16th April 2013, 05:13 AM   #33
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by picowallspeaker View Post
Wrong. The purpose of the box it to take control of what happens in the vicinity of the resonant frequency.
You don't need the extra volume then

My point is, you cannot stretch a driver if you want quality sound. People use 2-way bookshelf because they want the soundstage and midrange (and some others). People use 2-way floorstander because they want the bass (a poor man's approach)
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Old 16th April 2013, 05:27 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Of course, even live shows are defective. But people still come to the show without problems screaming at them.
For me, most of the time, they do it wrong. I gave them up years ago, I found the sound too execrable 98% of the time. Yet, there were a couple of shows that did it right, that proved that PA sound can work if the people handling it know what they're doing ...

Quote:
Low frequency is one of important aspect of high-end sound. Without those low frequency, our system is NOT complete, and probably not good enough.

To produce this low frequency we need large cone. Use of box to augment the low frequency is one common but imperfect method (especially TL ).
Have never been fussed about deep LF; it's a bonus if it's there and working properly. I've heard mega expensive towers filled with monster drivers, which just sound like a blubbery mess - not my thing at all ...

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But why rely on measurements if it doesn't guarantee anything we need. The measurement tools cannot detect if an opamp exist in the audio chain. Actually, the measurement is good probably because of an opamp in the audio chain.
Some of the best power amps I've heard over the years depended on opamps; like everything, they can be done well, and not well ...
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Old 16th April 2013, 08:12 AM   #35
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Some of the best power amps I've heard over the years depended on opamps; like everything, they can be done well, and not well ...
Can you give some examples? I will not put MBL in my list of best amps. Musical Fidelity uses the opamp in composite structure. Public Address amps are surely not on my list.
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Old 16th April 2013, 09:00 AM   #36
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Can you give some examples? I will not put MBL in my list of best amps. Musical Fidelity uses the opamp in composite structure. Public Address amps are surely not on my list.
AFAIK Bryston rely on opamps.
Accuphase also rely on them. actually, they have a fetish for the opamp+transistor buffer arrangement (is it called composite?). they're all over the place, no opamp is left without its accompanying buffer. the ones I've heard seemed decent.
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Old 17th April 2013, 06:06 AM   #37
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
AFAIK Bryston rely on opamps.
Accuphase also rely on them. actually, they have a fetish for the opamp+transistor buffer arrangement (is it called composite?). they're all over the place, no opamp is left without its accompanying buffer. the ones I've heard seemed decent.
I consider a Bryston as a PA amplifier. One of the top Accuphase use opamp but it is not ordinary opamp. May be one of the current feedback one.

Better to compare them with their own model which doesn't use opamp.
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Old 17th April 2013, 09:30 AM   #38
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I consider a Bryston as a PA amplifier.
well, what can I say? friend did a shootout between a Pass Labs, a Classe, a Bryston and Accu 7100 (sorry, I don't recall the types of others but similar ranges). Bryston came third, surpassing the Pass Labs amp.

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One of the top Accuphase use opamp but it is not ordinary opamp. May be one of the current feedback one.
their C2820 preamp is second below top of the range and uses 4 different opamp types (many of them actually) of 3 different brands, none of which is current feedback. true, they're precision, low-noise ones, but no CFB.
it's not an amp, but I guess it's supposed to match in quality their top of the line amps.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 17th April 2013 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 17th April 2013, 12:10 PM   #39
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Can you give some examples? I will not put MBL in my list of best amps. Musical Fidelity uses the opamp in composite structure. Public Address amps are surely not on my list.
That is your loss!
MC2 Audio amps are some of the best sounding amps money can buy regardless of price and not only do they use opamps but they are also PA/installation/studio amps.
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Old 17th April 2013, 12:48 PM   #40
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I prefer the amplifier system that has good phase performance up to MHz.
hmmm.
then I guess you are restricted to a handful of brands, and that is being optimistic. looking at the Stereophile measurements, very few amps extend in the hundreds of kiloherthz range, let alone MHzs. also, I think you are aware that any digital source has a steep digital filter with a cutoff frequency close to fs/2. filter which is many times non linear phase. and then a relatively steep analog filter with cutoff well below MHzs.

and it is pretty much known that group delay sensitivity is actually lower at high frequencies. harmonic distortion sensitivity is the one that increases at the top of the range, AFAIK (I'm speaking from memory).
and very few people seem to be are aware of the fact that the DC blocking caps (and that is including the ones present at the recording side) can easily have an influence on the phase response in the midrange region, where it's proven to be most important, since the 70s.
I am not saying that there's not any merit in getting the phase response right if it doesn't take stupid efforts but IMO most of the times you're fighting an undefeatable enemy.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 17th April 2013 at 01:16 PM.
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