The tweaking imperative - Page 12 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th April 2013, 10:12 AM   #111
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
Are we talking about strictly nonlinear distortions, or linear? People make a distinction between the two, but as long as there's a real room interacting with the speakers, you're going to get 'echoes' mixing with the direct sound.
Non-linear.

Linear distortions I've found not to be a problem, nor are echoes. This is apparently because the ear/brain is very clever and relaxed at sorting what's going on when amplitude and phase variations, and reflections are part of the picture. The non-linear components are comparatively difficult, and stressful for the mind to filter out, and we get listening fatigue ...
__________________
Frank . . . the truth is, I just like a bit of ASMR ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 11:52 AM   #112
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
M Gregg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
From the point of view of constant tweaking,,

I'm not saying this is so...however..

There is mention or fable call it what you will that a system ages..
solder joints get older..cables and connections get tarnished..

Do you ever unplug an amp and plug it back into system and think something has changed? or unplugged tubes and put them back again..
Many audiophiles think components burn in..now if and it is an if this was true..then perhaps there would be a formula for a system to sound good after burn in<<<of course this is a fallacy like everything else..It might be possible to stumble on this by accident..

Because if it was true..then the sound of a new system would not be the same after a few years of use..this would mean that tweaking a system to sound good at the start will not last..only if you could know how the amp would sound after aging and tweak at the start so its sound would end up with the desired result would the tweaking work..

Now we all know that things like contact cleaners and the like have no effect if they did then the system could never be stable from a sound point of view...changes in ambient temp are not permanent but aging would be? If you bias something and the sound changed during burn in so you had to rebias etc..This is not engineering its fable. We are back to blue tack under components etc

Of course tweaking a cross over with new speakers so it sounds good <<would you have to do it again after some run in time?

Regards
M. Gregg
__________________
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Last edited by M Gregg; 25th April 2013 at 11:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 12:35 PM   #113
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
M Gregg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK
The other thing,

Are the tweaks talked about changes of value of a component or changing type of component with the same value? Because you have to accept if you are tweaking and you can hear a difference that the tweak is having an audiable effect..Its a bit like saying I can hear a difference if I mount my CD player on spikes or change the feet..(many will argue that the electrical characteristics have not changed) so there can be no difference..
I tried a silver cable once with polyester dielectric it sounded awful. Sorry I digress

I suppose its a bit like saying you must put capacitors across rectifier diodes to remove noise..and then saying but if you use soft fast recovery or an tube rec you won't hear it...

Fun link..(Someone else's ideas).

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/triode4.html


Regards
M. Gregg
__________________
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Last edited by M Gregg; 25th April 2013 at 01:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 02:07 PM   #114
diyAudio Member
 
regiregi22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Madrid (Spain)
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Gregg View Post
Are the tweaks talked about changes of value of a component or changing type of component with the same value?
I consider tweaking to be a change of value, measurable, aspect and not the brand.
__________________
diyAudio, doing it as big as you can, JUST BECAUSE WE CAN!
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 11:06 PM   #115
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Tweaking as I refer to it means that everything is fair game: if I simply plonk standard components down somewhere convenient, connect together using cables supplied and switch on then that is no tweaking; as soon as I adjust or alter anything in an attempt to improve the sound then that's tweaking. At the usual understood level it does mean changing parts, but this is relatively ineffectual; much more influential is re-engineering weak areas of the setup, sorting out interference behaviours, stabilising poor connections, circuit element positioning, and speaker integrity and movement. Everything matters, the one thing you don't do will undermine, limit the effectiveness of all the other effort put into the exercise...
__________________
Frank . . . the truth is, I just like a bit of ASMR ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 11:19 PM   #116
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Everything matters, the one thing you don't do will undermine, limit the effectiveness of all the other effort put into the exercise...
How does this fit with the jobbing 'engineers', hundreds of metres of cable, joints and op amps that preceded your holistically perfect system?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 11:25 PM   #117
diyAudio Member
 
abraxalito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hangzhou - Marco Polo's 'most beautiful city'. 700yrs is a long time though...
Blog Entries: 96
Send a message via MSN to abraxalito Send a message via Yahoo to abraxalito Send a message via Skype™ to abraxalito
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
The non-linear components are comparatively difficult, and stressful for the mind to filter out, and we get listening fatigue ...
This raises an interesting question about our perceptual processes, I'm not at all sure what's going on is 'filtering out'. I'm currently reading a book:

The Bates Method for Better Eyesight Without Glasses: William H. Bates: 9780805002416: Amazon.com: Books

and the author there says that when we don't recognize something visually, that's when visual strain happens. We get fatigued 'trying to make sense' of what's seen. I conjecture that the same goes on aurally - when there's too much 'distortion' (I'd say noise modulation myself but we're talking about the same thing so the term doesn't matter much) then we don't get recognition of what we hear.
__________________
It doesn't have to take the form of a conspiracy, rather a consensus... James H Kunstler
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2013, 11:56 PM   #118
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
How does this fit with the jobbing 'engineers', hundreds of metres of cable, joints and op amps that preceded your holistically perfect system?
Yes, this is the obvious question; and the answer appears to be a combination of factors: probably the most important one is that distortion introduced during playback is subjectively worse because of the high power levels in key equipment, the amplifiers. This means that the power supplies are working hard, drawing large and rather nasty looking current spikes from the mains, this has a ripple effect in that other components hooked into that same mains have to contend with noisier voltage rails - one reason that headphone listening is often perceived as being a higher quality experience. In the recording studio, at the time of doing the take, only line level signals of minimal power are about; the electronics are less subject to this type of "stress".

Another factor is that the recording studio is typically still built and operated to a good standard in spite of all the complications; the sound engineer has no desire to deliberately compromise the quality of his efforts by doing silly things.

Further, the distortion of the recording itself has a very different "character" from the distortion of the playback system; if the ear only has to contend with the recording's distortion style, because the playback distortion is subjectively negligible, then the job of the listening mechanism is easier.
__________________
Frank . . . the truth is, I just like a bit of ASMR ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2013, 12:00 AM   #119
diyAudio Member
 
abraxalito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hangzhou - Marco Polo's 'most beautiful city'. 700yrs is a long time though...
Blog Entries: 96
Send a message via MSN to abraxalito Send a message via Yahoo to abraxalito Send a message via Skype™ to abraxalito
As regads the 'cables' question - professionals use balanced for very good reasons, whereas balanced seem to be the exception in the consumer space. Consumers normally have fairly noisy mains too whereas professionals take their utility supply seriously in general. Combine noisy mains with unbalanced cabling and that's a recipe for oodles of noise modulation.
__________________
It doesn't have to take the form of a conspiracy, rather a consensus... James H Kunstler
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2013, 12:09 AM   #120
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
We get fatigued 'trying to make sense' of what's seen. I conjecture that the same goes on aurally - when there's too much 'distortion' (I'd say noise modulation myself but we're talking about the same thing so the term doesn't matter much) then we don't get recognition of what we hear.
I agree entirely ... when the sound is too compromised then a lot of the low level detail is not recognised for what it is, especially when listening in a relatively casual way. But one can force oneself to unravel more of this by deliberately focusing hard on the sound, what people on WBF call "active listening" - this will obviously tire one out faster ...

An excellent technique for picking how good the sound is, and how the ear handles it, is to wind up the volume on complex, high energy music, and then deliberately engage in meaningful conversation with a person next to you. If your body immediately goes into a high stress mode, you can feel your anxiety level go through the roof, then there is a poor SQ problem ...
__________________
Frank . . . the truth is, I just like a bit of ASMR ...
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help With Tweaking swantzilla Multi-Way 0 12th May 2011 06:47 PM
Buffalo Tweaking jkeny Digital Line Level 316 10th March 2010 09:14 PM
49830 tweaking traw Chip Amps 0 3rd June 2009 03:35 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:25 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2