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Old 26th February 2013, 07:56 PM   #1
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Default Help with Warmth vs Detail

The last 10 years has been a struggle of Warmth vs Detail in my system. For better or worse the Detail group has been winning most of the battles. Most mods or changes brings out more detail but most of the time at the cost of warmth(realness). Yes, you can hear the proverbial mouse running across the back wall in the recording studio. However, I don't seem to be able to combine that detail with the warmth I seek. Expecting too much?
Some details:
I have the same room(12 x17 x8, modest room mods, full floor carpet, corner tube traps, first reflection absorption panels on the side walls, rear wall and wood ceiling.)
Dynaudio 1.3 mk2, Diy cat5 cables, Diy Belden 1695a coax with Eichman bullet interconnects, Tube mono block with Mullard/seimens/teles/you name it input tubes, mullard or tele drivers, Flying J EL34s. Only inline cap is one Mcap silver/oils(in the amps, back to back silmics in the Denon dac) and Caddock TF resistors.
This part of the system has been much the same(sans the philips/denon) over the period with minor changes.
I have used The following sources with and without an Audible Illussion 2a pre, as the mono amps have a volume control(carbon and conductive plastic pots have been used);
Arcam Alpha 5, Philips dvd963, Magnavox cd563, Denon 1500, Nakamichi player 4, Adcom gcd700 and now a Philips/Denon dvd5000(transport/dac). All with extensive mods. Some of these player had an external 6922 tube stage(TDA1541a). I like the PCM1704 sound better. The others had opamp rolling.
It seems that all PS improvements/changes and SPDIF cable mods really bring out the detail, but again at the cost of warmth. I did notice that the "digities" with this new Philips/Denon combo has all but disapeared, a welcomed change, with clear and non fatigueing sound. But still thin to me.
Has anyone been able to get that warmth with detail, and if so, what was the magic that made it happen? I guess I'm looking for the silver bullet! I was thinking of changing the amp driver load resistor from the existing Caddock mp925(20k, 5 watt minimum) to a Mills. Any Ideas?
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Old 26th February 2013, 08:57 PM   #2
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Are you sure the tube amp can drive those Dynaudio well?

I think there will always be "warmth vs detail" but when detail starts to be preferred then it is usually a good sign.

Good PS will improve the detail but may "kill" the warmth with its poor impedance. Use CLC or shunt regulation anywhere. No 78xx/79xx for sure (some expensive devices still use it). CLC for tube heater is a must.

May be the silmics is not a good idea. I know that your setup shows that you like "detail" more than "warmth" but it could be the effect of improper warmth in your system (and lack of detail) due to insufficient drive of the loudspeaker.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:19 PM   #3
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Default Power is no problem

Thanks for the reply. The amps are rated at 250va each. The output transformer has a 3.75 ohm tap so I think this area is quite fine. I understand the difficulties with getting the warmth and detail at the same time. I have read that back to back connected electrolytic caps negate most of there shortcomings in a signal coupling usage(?). Silmics have a good reputation for signal passing and decoupling, the dac system in the denon used them exclusively for all electrolytic needs, including decoupling. Just wondering if anyone has really modded their way into this combination, warmth and detail. Somewhat subjective, yeah.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:21 PM   #4
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Could it be as simple as a slight eq tweak?
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:23 PM   #5
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I can't possibly comment on all the gear, but I've recently gone from smaller ported speakers to sealed three way with large woofers, in huge boxes. They seem to deliver both the warmth and the detail I crave.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:51 PM   #6
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Eq tweak for the purist? I guess I have used this on the car system, and it sound good there. I was hoping to avoid additional items in the signal path. I always thought the Equalizer would phase shift or distort, maybe there is a good one out there!

Changing speakers is a possibility. I have somewhere an double set of old(1970's) large Advents somewhere. Warmer maybe, but not as distortion free as the Dynaudios. I remember the brightness control making them somewhat strident sounding. Maybe a bit of crossover moding would help.

Anyone out there have any components that where changed that help the warmth without losing detail?
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:07 PM   #7
weskoki is offline weskoki  Europe
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It's the Dyn sound signature.They sound neutral.
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Old 5th March 2013, 12:20 AM   #8
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optimationman View Post
The last 10 years has been a struggle of Warmth vs Detail in my system. For better or worse the Detail group has been winning most of the battles. Most mods or changes brings out more detail but most of the time at the cost of warmth(realness). Yes, you can hear the proverbial mouse running across the back wall in the recording studio. However, I don't seem to be able to combine that detail with the warmth I seek. Expecting too much?

...

It seems that all PS improvements/changes and SPDIF cable mods really bring out the detail, but again at the cost of warmth. I did notice that the "digities" with this new Philips/Denon combo has all but disapeared, a welcomed change, with clear and non fatigueing sound. But still thin to me.
Has anyone been able to get that warmth with detail, and if so, what was the magic that made it happen? I guess I'm looking for the silver bullet! I was thinking of changing the amp driver load resistor from the existing Caddock mp925(20k, 5 watt minimum) to a Mills. Any Ideas?
The quick answer is, yes. And the somewhat unpleasant answer to the 2nd part, is that it depends!! The silver bullet, as in something one can add, like a magic exilir, to any system to transform it into a "perfect" reproducing machine does not exist!!

That said, you're well on your way to getting there. Detail needs to come before "warmth", which is actually a term meaning "lack of distortion". If you get the level of audible distortion below a certain point then every recording becomes warm, as in, enjoyable to listen to. Chucking away detail is an easy solution, but hasn't solved the problem; it's effectively just throwing a heavy army blanket over the speakers, so you don't hear the problems ...

Anyway, I won't rabbit on; if you tune in at all to my point of view give me a yell, so I know it's worthwhile continuing ... ,

Frank
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Old 5th March 2013, 09:15 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Could it be as simple as a slight eq tweak?
Almost certainly.

IME, the Fostex FExxx drivers sound "detailed" but rarely "warm". They usually have a tilted-up frequency response.

Larger speakers with full BSC would carry significantly more energy in the 2-500Hz range (where oft-used horns etc for the Fostexes don't provide much), giving them a relatively "warm" sound.

Its quite easily demonstrable. Those active Behringers can go from warm and cuddly to thin and detailed by altering the BSC by a couple of dB.

Chris
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Old 5th March 2013, 10:17 AM   #10
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
Its quite easily demonstrable. Those active Behringers can go from warm and cuddly to thin and detailed by altering the BSC by a couple of dB.
Expensive speakers rarely use the BSC trick. Even if the Dynaudio woofer is relatively small in diameter, the low frequency performance is achieved by lowering the sensitivity a-la LS3/5A.

Speakers like the 1.3 will shine with amplifiers that can drive low impedance load well. I'm not familiar with high power tube amp circuits, but I think it doesn't equate to higher damping proportionally and automatically.

The output transformer is the key for voltage to current transformation. For high power amp this is getting expensive and critical. I guess this high power amp in used can be Chinese made or DIY with OT much less than the quality of Tango/Tamura.
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