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Old 7th March 2013, 11:30 PM   #21
DaveG is offline DaveG  United States
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The comment about big woofers may have some merit.
Also I agree with your minimalist approach.
I have always tended to lean out my systems to improve detail. First starting way back with KEF drivers.
Then trying transmission lines and so forth, then biamping from the woofers to mid...all to keep the low midrange clean.
So it would seem that the woofers clouded the midrange in my past 3 way systems.

Anyway, eventually I built a Fried C-3 kit. Had similar problems with warmth and weight.
To me image weight, fullness, etc, relates to the term "warmth". When correct, there is mass and shape and weight to the image, and still clarity.

My tube amp can also cause problems, probably when the interaction with a particular speaker causes the response to peak and dip in the low range, and cause the same problem of masking.

Eventually I built 21w54 woofer boxes and bi-amped with tube on top and and mosfet for the woofers.
I mention this as maybe something like the 21w54 size, with just a little more low end reach, yet close enough to
the 1.3 woofer to have a similar sound character for good blend - not a subwoofer, but small woofer.

Used then in a stereo pair, bi-amped in with just a passive cap on the HP and a very adjustable (Pass) electronic on
the LP would let you play with fill and warmth and Q and slope adjustments, only for the LP, to fill in yet not change the
overall sound character of the 1.3's you like.

I looked at the Stereophile measurements and the 1.3 shows a small bump centered about 90 and a small dip in the 300 region.
And you mentioned a single cap in the signal path so maybe the value of it could be tweeked to slightly roll of the HP and flatten the small bump.
So then maybe the bi-amp woofer could fill in, allowing fuller sound without the 90Hz bump to mask detail. Sort of like EQ for the bottom end without
any actual EQ box and minimal signal altering of the feed to the 1.3's. Lots of maybe's here.
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:33 PM   #22
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optimationman View Post
First, I don't spend money changing equipment. I like what I have. Just one resistor change can make as much difference in the sound in a very revealing system. I am looking for a component change to warm the already tweaked system I have.

More warmth is what I would like. I listen to acoustic music most of the time. What I hear now is very detailed, piano bench creaks, picked string, fingers across the surface of the guitar etc. What I want or seem to be lacking is the smoothness of the vibrating string/decay in both instruments. You can hear the piano hammer strike, but the string soundslike a hard pure tone without harmonics. For the lack of a better word, clinical or hifi....

The highs are not fatigueing, just up front.
Yes, this sounds very familar, this is a step on the way to getting what I call the "good stuff" -- thoroughly convincing sound. When you've got the system to the point where the slightest fiddling alters the sound, then this is where the efforts to trouble shoot the last problem areas have to be redoubled. It may be a hard, frustrating road at times, but the end results are worth it ...

OK, to me from that description it sounds like you're having digital playback problems: something is causing enough disturbance to the electronics in that area to give you those type of symptoms: poor rendition of the harmonics and the decay of, say, a single note -- the sound of such should decay completely smoothly into the "blackness" of the acoustic.

If you're interested, I would be happy to go through a bit of Q and A to try and track this down a bit more ...

Frank
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:40 PM   #23
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In my experience, detail and warmth can't be had - they're polar opposites. That's if by 'detail' you mean a lift in the 2k-8k region. That's a mild form of sibilance - IMD in other words. 'Warmth' OTOH is what you get when there's very little or no IMD.

Not everyone has this meaning for 'detail' though - some use it to mean lower noise floor so they can hear more lower level aspects of the recording - like the pages turning on the music stand. This form of 'detail' can most certainly co-exist with warmth.
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:52 PM   #24
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Frank, I would be pleased to go thru some Q&A with you. Sent email. Good morning by the way or is it G'day.....

Concerning the change in the value of the single coupling cap in the amps, I was thinking that lowering or raising the value would effect the low freq roll off point, not the high freq roll off. The speaker particulars is one area I have never delved into. Not sure what you had in mind. Again, my understanding is that this model speaker was quite respected for it's accuracy and midrange transparency. Giving a warm electronic signal, it would produce just that and giving a harsh signal etc..
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:59 PM   #25
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abraxalito, I was afraid someone would say that. Can't have it both ways. IMD may be a problem, but all aspects of the sound are so clear and crisp, it seems that that would be a minor issue at best, not sure. Something like digities on a less than good recording or cd player, but to a lesser degree. I have many "class" recorded cds and have played them on many players, bad to very good. You can tell the difference in digities, and my player has all but eliminated that issue.
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Old 8th March 2013, 12:15 AM   #26
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IMD arises from opamps IME - especially in conjunction with digital stuff because that's putting out RF which opamps hate with a vengeance. I got a substantial lowering of my noise floor when I put a passive filter behind the I/V resistor of my NOS DAC. Only then did I learn first-hand what 'warmth' really means - it has led to a substantial improvement of tonality, especially on piano sustained notes.
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Old 8th March 2013, 12:34 AM   #27
DaveG is offline DaveG  United States
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if the cap portion is directed at me...
yes, the cap would effect the low roll off. but in my above comments it would be the HP portion of a 2 way electronic crossover, the LP feeding the new yet to be tried woofers.

As far as accuracy and warmth and such - if it is assumed that speakers have a major contribution to the final sound, then even small frequency changes may have far more impact on weight and detail than anything feeding them. CD players are flat, response wise, many times more so than speakers, and the same can be said of the tube amp excluding any interaction on the bottom end.

Please do not take offense from my comments. They are well respected and Dynaudio drivers are superb. I have some . Even so, 6 1/2 is a smallish driver for making bass, and tuning for a small box sometimes causes some uneven response.
Is it possible those bumps, subtle as they are, are what you are hearing, or not hearing.
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Old 8th March 2013, 12:50 AM   #28
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Some people will be offended by this, but my experience is that the cleaner a system is, that is, the less low level audible distortion it has - what many people, like abraxalito, call the noise floor - the less important subjectively the FR is. In fact, on a super clean system it can have huge peaks and valleys, and they will not register in a meaningful way when listening ...

Frank
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Old 8th March 2013, 01:53 AM   #29
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DaveG, please no offense was taken at all. I do appreciate all input. Didn't read into what you were referring to, that is crossover components. Dyna used Solens in their filtering, by some accounts impart an edge on the sound. What I read into what you say is that small deviation in a speaker response, will have a bigger impact than the same deviation in the signal. Right? With minimal systems, ever thing has an impact. I have what I consider very good bass response above 35hz in the "tuned" small room. I am just not up on speaker characteristics. Not sure about the comment concerning 90 and 300hz variations affecting the warmth of a speaker in the mids. Maybe it is like you said, weight and fullness missing from the system presentation.

abraxalito, I have no doubt about the filtering after a NOS dac system. I worked with several TDA1541 players using both NOS and the SAA7220 filtered outputs. Lots of noise on both of them. I have gone to PCM1704/filtered outputs which I consider much quieter in the processing of digital signals and the sound that comes with much less work. I just didn't get the warmth I wanted. I agree with the hash going thru opamps. I even used passive I/V with tube outputs with those units. Didn't get where I wanted to go.

fas42, I don't think my system has huge peak and valleys. We are learning what is important to us and our wants in a system. Not looking of a measurable or technically perfect system. Never existed. Just want a little more warmth without sacrificing detail and spacial quality.
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Old 8th March 2013, 01:58 AM   #30
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The power supply noise of the SAA7220 is legendary, one of the reasons why people find NOS (with this chip extracted) sounds better in CD players. I've not heard it myself but I reckon that PCM1704 has too much glitching to give real warmth, though this could be improved with steep filtering of the above-audio freq glitch energy. My current DAC is TDA1387 (an array) but it only gives the warmth when there's a steep analog filter after it. I reckon DAC architecture is important - R2R just doesn't cut it, segmented current sources are where its at
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