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Old 5th March 2013, 10:38 AM   #11
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Detail needs to come before "warmth", which is actually a term meaning "lack of distortion". If you get the level of audible distortion below a certain point then every recording becomes warm, as in, enjoyable to listen to. Chucking away detail is an easy solution, but hasn't solved the problem; it's effectively just throwing a heavy army blanket over the speakers, so you don't hear the problems ...
"Warmth" usually refers to "friendly" distortion. High order distortion or good THD spectrum.

In this system, the final chain is the tube amp driving the Dynaudio. This determines the "warmth" of the system. "Detail" can be achieved by lowering distortion of the front end, or even using Cat5 style capacitive cable. We can see that OP has put the effort to improve the detail more than keeping the maximum warmth.

In above case, the tube amp coupled with the Dynaudio can be the bottleneck. Tube amp is usually a distortion machine, and hundreds of watts may mean even stronger distortion machine, especially given a difficult speaker load such as the Dynaudio.

I guess I would prefer Aleph X in this situation. For solid state, it needs vertical mosfet in class-A to approach the warmth of a tube amp.
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Old 7th March 2013, 06:41 PM   #12
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Thanks for the exchanges. I don't want to go the equalizer route, as I would live with the system as is first.

These amps are unique, as they are high quality instrumentation amps built for the like of NASA and the Bureau of Standards, with very high quality parts and transformers. They were built to drive difficult loads, 200va and stable with loads of +and - 1PF, that is fully capactive to fully inductive loads. The Dynaudios are impedance compensated, and should be an easy drive for these amps. I pick the dynas for there "revealling, accurate" reputation. Additionally, the amps have an adjustment that will dial out the internal impedance of the amps and I believe giving them as close to infinite damping as possible.

I did change the MF grid stoppers on the EL34s to CF, which took away some of the sparkle, without reducing the usable detail. In other words, going towards my tastes.

Anyone there have other Ideas?
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Old 7th March 2013, 07:20 PM   #13
Sjef is offline Sjef  Netherlands
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Get rid of the Dynaudios, seriously. They are very near field monitors,not fullrange living room loudspeakers, it's a mistake to use loudspeskers like these for such apllication.

A small loudspeaker like that will never give the sound you like.
These Dyanaudios have two very serious shortcomings. One, they are just too small. Warmth with detail is possible, very simple even but it is never ever going to work with small woofers, sorry. You will need large woofers with low rms values to accomplisch this.
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:02 PM   #14
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optimationman View Post
I did change the MF grid stoppers on the EL34s to CF, which took away some of the sparkle, without reducing the usable detail. In other words, going towards my tastes.

Anyone there have other Ideas?
Real music has sparkle, tons of "usable" detail. And it's also what's on the recording. Unfortunately for a lot of systems, if they are improved to the point of revealing that reasonably correctly then they also make the remaining distortion in the playback chain very obvious, and disturbing.

So then one has two options: accept that residual audible distortion as being inevitable, and spice it up in various ways, "flavour" it to suit one's preferences; or, attempt to eliminate it completely. Personally, I've found the latter route to be more satisfying in the long term ...

Frank
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:07 PM   #15
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Default Size Counts?

I was under the impression from others/reviews that the dyna 1.3mk2 was an accurate and neutral speaker. I am using them in a 5.2 x 3.7 x 2.5 mtr room. Close field listening is possible, and I have done extensive speaker position experiments to find the best location. Also have many room acoustic mods in place.

Not sure how big woofers help midrange warmth, the area I would like to improve.
Does size really count here? I seem to recall that some BBC monitors and other British brands have very nice warm sound. Dynas are maybe not the warmest. However, I am looking for an accurate, detailed warm type of sound. I don't need to move lots of air to achieve the warm sound as I listen to simple acoustic music, with and occasional romp thru light 70's rock. I have used larger speaker systems in the past, didn't find them useful in a small room.
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:19 PM   #16
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Default Masking the sound

Hi Frank, I know what you are saying. I have been modding this system for over ten years, yes the same components sans the cd player. I am some what of a minimalist at heart. CD player, amps, speakers. One cap(Mcap sil/oil) in the signal path, one on/off switch. I don't wish to mask anything. Others suggested tone controls, not here thanks.

Detail is important for soundstage presentation. I have that. Like I said before, you can hear the defect in the heartbeat of the mouse that ran across the recording studio back wall. Maybe that is what is bothering me.

I live at 2000 mtrs, thinner air have an effect on sound transfer? Looking to just add warmth, not reduce the highs or detail................
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:36 PM   #17
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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OK, you're essentially in the same zone as me, in terms of your approach, and I think the main trick will be to get the language used by us to synchronise. You keep mentioning warmth, and I'm still not sure precisely what you mean by the term -- put it this way, do you find real instruments warm? If you had real musicians in your room, playing the music you're listening to, would you find it less pleasant to listen to than the sound you're after ... ?

Frank
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:00 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by optimationman View Post
Others suggested tone controls, not here thanks.
Is it just me, or after a while of listening to a particular pair of speakers in a particular room, doesn't everyone begin to crave the opposite of whatever peaks, troughs and phase anomalies it's giving them? The active DSP person is able to subtly tweak the sound at the push of a button every now and again. This may be perceived as a failure to find the perfect setup, but I imagine the same thing would happen if you had to listen to live music constantly from a single position in a concert hall. I'm glad I've got the DSP to play with rather than having to expensively churn gear constantly just to avoid the ignominy of employing tone controls!

Last edited by CopperTop; 7th March 2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:17 PM   #19
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First, I don't spend money changing equipment. I like what I have. Just one resistor change can make as much difference in the sound in a very revealing system. I am looking for a component change to warm the already tweaked system I have.

More warmth is what I would like. I listen to acoustic music most of the time. What I hear now is very detailed, piano bench creaks, picked string, fingers across the surface of the guitar etc. What I want or seem to be lacking is the smoothness of the vibrating string/decay in both instruments. You can hear the piano hammer strike, but the string soundslike a hard pure tone without harmonics. For the lack of a better word, clinical or hifi....

The highs are not fatigueing, just up front.
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Old 7th March 2013, 11:19 PM   #20
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
This may be perceived as a failure to find the perfect setup, but I imagine the same thing would happen if you had to listen to live music constantly from a single position in a concert hall.
This certainly demonstrates that people have different ways of listening to music; if I was hearing a live, world class performance by talented musicians, the last thing on my mind would be that were FR irregularities in what was going on ...

Frank
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