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Old 8th January 2013, 02:20 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkwright View Post
I see a lot of uninformed opinion on education and schooling in this thread. It is fine to have an opinion, everyone has one.

Modern public school was not invented for education. It was invented specifically and precisely for indoctrination.
Prussian education system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The father of this style of schooling was
Johann Gottlieb Fichte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
who is also the father of Nazism. Think about that for a minute. Do you really want your children going to a school designed by a Nazi?

The school system was designed to destroy a child's imagination and his free will. They do this through the structure of the school itself. So, there is no way to fix public education. It is inherently broken, on purpose.
Ever read 'Tom Brown's Schooldays' dirk? It documents the origins of a system of schooling which set the standards in a nation without whose opposition nazism would have overwhelmed, if not the world, then Europe and Asia. It was pretty horrific by today's standards, but there's a lot of true wisdom embedded in language. 'Spare the rod and spoil the child.'

You may be well read in the history of education, but you quite obviously have little real experience of people, and most particularly children.

Children can not be permitted to exercise their 'free will'. Otherwise they will dominate their parents. This is a reversal of the natural order of things and can only have a disastrous outcome.

I've seen families where the parents didn't have the backbone to exercise discipline. At the least social workers moved in, in the worst cases it was the police.

Ever hear the expression 'tough love'? It didn't come from nowhere.

You remind me of the guy I knew who abandoned his dog in the woods so that it could be a 'free spirit.' That's not the way, the tao. That's not love. It's just a failure to take responsibility. Which is exactly the opposite of the example we want to set our kids.

Last edited by counter culture; 8th January 2013 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 8th January 2013, 04:20 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
View-free or morality-free education is not possible; those who claim otherwise either don't recognise their own prejudices or wish to hide them.
How do you know its not possible?

It does rather seem to me that morality-free education is akin to world peace - possible, but there's no real demand for it.
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:09 AM   #123
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Originally Posted by PlasticIsGood
Tomorrow everyone will not be ignorant, but omniscient, so knowledge will cease to have value. Everything will be optimised.
I remember in junior school a BBC programme for schools (the name escapes me) which painted a very rosy picture of the future: nuclear power would mean that electricity would be so cheap that it was no longer metered, crime detection would be so efficient that we would no longer need locks on our doors, we would have personal jet-packs for travel or flying cars. Note that this was not presented as science fiction, but serious futurology. Complete nonsense of course, but some people still seem to hold fond hopes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito
It does rather seem to me that morality-free education is akin to world peace - possible, but there's no real demand for it.
It may just about be possible to teach maths and science in a value-free way, although you would still have to decide on a concept of truth. Other subjects necessarily involve assumptions and values. You can't discuss a historical event or a book or play without some assumptions about values, except perhaps merely at the level of noting what happened. Each society has values, and educates its children accordingly. We may argue about whether the values are right/true/appropriate (and argue about which is the right criterion) but it is inescapable that education will generally follow them. The exception is when education is used subversively by people who have different values from the society as a whole, for good or bad motives (another debating point!). I don't want to stray too far into politics.

I don't believe world peace is possible, precisely because there is no demand for it. To say why there is no demand would take me into another area the mods would not approve of, for DIYaudio.

Last edited by DF96; 8th January 2013 at 10:24 AM. Reason: extend
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Old 8th January 2013, 10:52 AM   #124
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Isn't any attempt for a morality-free education an exercise in morality? Is there not a shortage of world peace demand, but instead a shortage of world peace supply?
Real demand for peace seems like an oxymoron, despite nuance. IMO peace is something one gives, and is repaid in kind.
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Old 8th January 2013, 11:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Other subjects necessarily involve assumptions and values.
But the assumption can be a non-moral assumption. For example, Austrian economics starts from the axiom (which you might wish to call an assumption) that 'value exists only in the human mind'. The rest of the Austrian economic edifice is founded on that one simple axiom.

You seem to have gone off track - your original claim was about the impossibility of morality-free education, but you're not addressing that, rather focussing on assumption-free education (which I think probably is impossible).

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I don't believe world peace is possible, precisely because there is no demand for it.
So the (hypothetical) appearance of demand would suddenly make it possible? I rather suspect that the word 'impossible' has divergent meanings between our two idiolects
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Old 8th January 2013, 01:51 PM   #126
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito
But the assumption can be a non-moral assumption.
Can there be any non-moral assumptions?

Quote:
For example, Austrian economics starts from the axiom (which you might wish to call an assumption) that 'value exists only in the human mind'.
That assumes either that only human minds exist, or only their values matter. A moral assumption?

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So the (hypothetical) appearance of demand would suddenly make it possible?
Sorry, I was not very clear there. What I meant was that the human condition which causes there not to be universal demand for it is also the human condition which stops it happening.
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Old 8th January 2013, 02:32 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Can there be any non-moral assumptions?
Laws of physics.

There s no assumption that can be made about them.
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Old 8th January 2013, 02:36 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Can there be any non-moral assumptions?
For me, yes without any doubt. Perhaps not for you though?

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That assumes either that only human minds exist, or only their values matter. A moral assumption?
Looks like a fail - please show reasoning. I did say 'value' not 'values' btw.

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What I meant was that the human condition which causes there not to be universal demand for it is also the human condition which stops it happening.
Looks to me like an assumption that there is just one ('the human condition') for which I can't see a justification.
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Old 8th January 2013, 04:28 PM   #129
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In my experience, the general population has the math/science skills of a 12 year old. I can't go wrong giving presentations to the public at that level.

As somebody said, it's what they desire..most wish their world turnkey.

jn
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Old 8th January 2013, 05:03 PM   #130
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