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Old 1st November 2012, 06:31 AM   #41
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by aardvarkash10 View Post
BTW, there is no alternative to "conventional" science (bar ignorance) so the adjective is superfluous
I'm using the term "conventional" in the sense that the scientist typically believes he can always investigate a situation without impacting the outcome by his presence. In the truly hairy areas of fundamental physics research this becomes a mighty battle to make happen, where staggeringly expensive experiments are set up, to achieve some slight progress forward in understanding. My suggestion is the paranormal lives in a "reality" that is a slight step beyond that again ...

Frank

PS: and yet again silliness intrudes. If someone considers that there may be "something in it" then the "logical" extrapolation is that the person swallows holus bolus all the most barmy expressions of the phenomenon ...
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:36 AM   #42
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Just to play devils advocate, it is interesting that the researchers concluded the results to be consistent with chance alone, when their sample size (ie two supposed psychics out of all possible psychics) and only 5 test subjects were all that were tested Somehow I don't think that they tested a statistically significant sample size

It's also not clear whether the one person that identified themself from the desciptions the phsycics did so for both or only one of the descriptions...

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Old 1st November 2012, 06:40 AM   #43
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your PS is not pointing out silliness. To accept, even in small part, that there is "something in it" beyond the well documented such as micro-effects and the practise of cold reading you have to accept the entire ball of wax.

You do not, in a consistent world, get to choose which bits you will apply rational thinking to and which bits you will accept as a cosmic gift of enlightenment.
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:46 AM   #44
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They are not con artists because they truly believe in their own powers.
No, they're still con artists. The ethics don't change because of self-deluded rationalizations. It's just easier to be a con artist after you've conned yourself.
From another view, if I were to accept that explanation, I can't then accept the "testing stress" explanation - they should be comfortable with themselves and their capabilities.
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:55 AM   #45
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by aardvarkash10 View Post
your PS is not pointing out silliness. To accept, even in small part, that there is "something in it" beyond the well documented such as micro-effects and the practise of cold reading you have to accept the entire ball of wax.
As an analogy, is medicine contaminated for having researched what witch doctors and shamans did when "magically" healing people, and realising that there were healing properties in some of the strange concoctions and plants used? Did medicine fudge it by not swallowing the "entire ball of wax"?

A study of history demonstrates over and over again that there are strange behaviours, patterns of human activity that seem to make no sense, until it's thoroughly researched and a deeply rational explanation for the origins of the bizarreness finally emerges ...

The key point is to ignore the twisted cloak of irrationality that overarches much of this activity, and consider whether there can be a kernel of "truth", whatever that be, somewhere within ...

Frank


PS: Would you have been the bold soul that proclaimed to your neighbours that they were fools, because they believed the world was flat, in those earlier times ...
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:02 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by sofaspud View Post
No, they're still con artists. The ethics don't change because of self-deluded rationalizations. It's just easier to be a con artist after you've conned yourself.
From another view, if I were to accept that explanation, I can't then accept the "testing stress" explanation - they should be comfortable with themselves and their capabilities.
Virtually all everyday psychics, not the performance variety, happily acknowledge that it's very hit and miss as to whether they'll be able to pick up something really significant. Just like a doctor will never guarantee that he can cure you every time ...

Frank
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:09 AM   #47
wwenze is offline wwenze  Singapore
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They are not con artists because they truly believe in their own powers. It's too bad this also happens in the medical profession, where far more money and higher stakes are in the balance.
I feel it, bro.
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:31 AM   #48
jerryo is offline jerryo  Isle of Man
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Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
I just read the BBC link at the start of this Thread. One of the psychic's, Patricia Putt said
( about the fact that no evidence of psychic powers were found )
that it "doesn't prove a thing"
She got that right!!

It's the 21st Century, I repeat 21st Century, there are no psychic powers, no ghosts, no telekenesis, no Gods, no afterlife. Accept it, and move on. Think of all the interesting and 'real' things that you will have the space to be able to engage in when you shed all of the mystical none sense!
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:39 AM   #49
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As an analogy
Another that misses the mark.
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what witch doctors and shamans did when "magically" healing people, and realising that there were healing properties in some of the strange concoctions and plants used
It was demonstrably shown, and then scientifically verified. Nothing magical there. That's what needs to be done... one conclusion or the other. Though the balance of evidence at this time is quite overwhelming.
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Virtually all everyday psychics, not the performance variety [I make no distinction. The entertainers call themselves mentalists], happily acknowledge that it's very hit and miss as to whether they'll be able to pick up something really significant.
Is that another way of saying it's pure chance?
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Old 1st November 2012, 08:40 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
As an analogy, is medicine contaminated for having researched what witch doctors and shamans did when "magically" healing people, and realising that there were healing properties in some of the strange concoctions and plants used? Did medicine fudge it by not swallowing the "entire ball of wax"?
Difference is that the researchers you identify do not start from a point of "My suggestion is the [witchdoctor heals] in a "reality" that is a slight step beyond that again ..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
A study of history demonstrates over and over again that there are strange behaviours, patterns of human activity that seem to make no sense, until it's thoroughly researched and a deeply rational explanation for the origins of the bizarreness finally emerges ...
Again, they are researched from the point of known rational science, not a hoodoo belief system that requires secrets and explains away inconsistent outcomes by blaming the act of measurement.

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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
PS: Would you have been the bold soul that proclaimed to your neighbours that they were fools, because they believed the world was flat, in those earlier times ...
Actually the world was generally known (or understood) to be spherical for a long time before and concurrent with the minority belief in a flat earth. The flat-earthers were analogous with the fringe dwelling belief systems of today including those who believe in "paranormal" and psychic phenomena.
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