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Old 1st November 2012, 12:13 AM   #21
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Unfortunately that is an example of how this type of conversation degenerates: it starts with the non-believers or sceptical nudging each other and rolling their eyes, then the jokes start coming, which evolve more and more into a fat man slipping on a banana skin variety, and finally raw anger enters the mix -- "how can such types of people be allowed to be in public ...!"

And people wonder how wars start ...

Frank
Frank,

I made a simple statement of fact, that "psychics" operate by streaming a narrative while observing their subjects reactions and using those reactions to tune the story to the particular subject. Thus a double blind trial would interrupt the means that "psychics" use to ply their trade. I don't see where your points regarding beliefs and banana skins apply.

Interestingly our politicians use a very similar technique to tune their narratives. Observers of debates are wired to measure their physiological reactions and the politicians tune their messages to those from the debate that elicited the most positive reactions. Like I said, the methodology is common to all con games, but applied with varying levels of sophistication.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:21 AM   #22
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I was listening to the Today programme on BBC Radio 4, (a serious news programme), the other morning, and they had a feature on graphology, the current vogue amongst HR types. A presenter gave a sample of handwriting to the guest and the analysis was such a brilliant mix of cold reading and sweeping generalisations I almost spilt my tea I was giggling so much.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:23 AM   #23
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Explain this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHN2kngOtk4

Must be ESP. No other possible explanation. Right?

Con artists are con artists. I truly and honestly don't understand the mindset which feels it necessary to defend them, especially when the defender is clearly not a stupid person. Indeed, Dave is right- I see the same behavior from people in audio steadfastly defending the scammers.
I notice a number of people have offered up reasonable explanations as to how it's done. After all, he's a magician, his "job" is to fool you, using any technique he can devise to make it happen.

But mimicing, using trickery, what someone has genuinely done is not demonstrating the genuine article can't be the real deal, . Let's go to that old chestnut, man has not gone to the moon, it was all faked, etc, etc. If a film studio with all its resources created a new, believable, but different version of the footage of the craft on the moon would that immediately discount the "real" thing as being fake? In fact, if I went the whole hog, and indeed decide to believe that that the moon landing was faked, how would you prove it to me? Every time you offered up documents, and bits of objects, and interviews with people I would exclaim that the US has tremendous financial resources, it has a lot to lose if it's found guilty of fraud, so it will do whatever it takes to make sure that the tracks of its deception are always covered.

So how could you finally convince that the moon landing was real ...?

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 1st November 2012 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:25 AM   #24
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Aim a laser at the corner reflectors left at the landing sites...duhhh!
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:28 AM   #25
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...So how could you finally convince that the moon landing was real ...?
Simply that you can't keep that big a secret for that long. People always talk. Look at that sunken Soviet sub that the CIA tried to recover with help from Howard Hughes. You just can't keep people quiet.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:30 AM   #26
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Aim a laser at the corner reflectors left at the landing sites...duhhh!
Too long a story to go into, but been there, done that.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:36 AM   #27
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Frank,

I made a simple statement of fact, that "psychics" operate by streaming a narrative while observing their subjects reactions and using those reactions to tune the story to the particular subject. Thus a double blind trial would interrupt the means that "psychics" use to ply their trade. I don't see where your points regarding beliefs and banana skins apply.
Some "psychics" who now have a highly profitable lifestyle based on giving a perfomance may use such. And ordinary people with "gifts" who are just trying to help someone in emotional stress may do so to appease that person, in the moment. But it appears that is not how it always works ...

The point is that recognised researchers, in university and similar environments have tackled these issues very seriously, and still have obtained telling results. But this is what is always ignored in these types of discussions; the finger is always pointed at investigations, and silly performance kings, where there are holes a Mack truck could drive through ...

Frank
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:52 AM   #28
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Aim a laser at the corner reflectors left at the landing sites...duhhh!
The two sides of the "answer" now come to the fore ...

Firstly, I could continue to say things such as, the person I asked to confirm this was "got at" by the government and faked the results under pressure, or via monetary incentive. Or, the space agency worked very hard, in secret, to send a simple probe to the moon, covered with reflectors which would do that job. See, the magician's sleight of hand is always capable of going the next step ...

But the second, more important aspect is the real answer: weight of evidence. The sheer volume of material relating to the moon landing is so immense that it boggles the imagination and everything else, that is the "ultimate" answer.

And in the same way, the enormous volume of material relating to parapsychology is quite staggering, it's all there to investigate for those with an open mind. If you only, carefully, pick and choose the bits that are obviously silly then you can only continue to convince yourself it's all nonsense ...

Frank
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Old 1st November 2012, 01:04 AM   #29
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...And in the same way, the enormous volume of material relating to parapsychology is quite staggering, it's all there to investigate for those with an open mind. If you only, carefully, pick and choose the bits that are obviously silly then you can only continue to convince yourself it's all nonsense ...
Sorry, but I've been interested in the subject for years and read widely in the field. As Fox Moulder's office wall poster states "I want to believe". But I can't. Yes, there are a very few cases that have no obvious causes, but even those do not present enough evidence to prove paranormal phenomena.
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Old 1st November 2012, 01:37 AM   #30
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And in the same way, the enormous volume of material relating to parapsychology is quite staggering, it's all there to investigate for those with an open mind. If you only, carefully, pick and choose the bits that are obviously silly then you can only continue to convince yourself it's all nonsense ...

Frank
Frank,

Now I understand where you were going with belief.
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