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Old 6th September 2012, 01:21 PM   #131
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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Well, there's book smart and then there's street smart. People could do with a healthy dose of both.
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Old 6th September 2012, 01:38 PM   #132
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People could do with a healthy dose of both.
Amen.
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Old 6th September 2012, 02:20 PM   #133
TheGimp is offline TheGimp  United States
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Bob (122) I was talking about the manufacturing base in the USA.

It started way before Regan. As far back as the 60s companies were trying to move manufacturing to Taiwan and other off shore countries.

Singer moved it's major sewing machine manufacturing to Mexico in the 70s only to see quality plummet and have to move back to the USA.

In the 1950s, the USA was the leading manufacturer in the world. That continued through the 60s, but started to turn in the 70s with the advent of high quality Japanese electronics, and later automobiles. (Japanese automobiles in the 60s were of very poor quality.).

By the late 70s (remember the gas shortage?) economic issues also took their tole on the US economy (and the rest of the industrialized nation s as well), but it was the accelerated move to offshore manufacturing that began to make a big impact with the loss of jobs for the labor base.

The declaration of a "Service Economy" as the solution to the loss of manufacturing jobs was a total farce as without a 'Goods" manufacturing base there are no jobs for the vast number of high school graduate (the percentage of students pursuing postgraduate degrees is roughly 60%. However, half those don't graduate. And of the ones that do graduate, half can't find a job in their field!

So we have 2/3 - 3/4 of HS graduates are either without professional training or trained in a profession where there are no jobs (history degree any one?), with very few manufacturing jobs available.

What do they do, Flip burgers, Stock shelves at Wal Mart?

This is our Service Economy!

http://www.completecollege.org/docs/..._the_Enemy.pdf

Numbers vary, but most sites I looked at report similar results to this study.
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Old 6th September 2012, 02:29 PM   #134
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Yeah, I agree it is very sad. I remember when Reagan killed the college student loan program. I barely made it out. Many others weren't so lucky. They had to scramble for loans in the middle of their semester.
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Old 6th September 2012, 03:43 PM   #135
TheGimp is offline TheGimp  United States
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One big problem I see is the failure of higher education to keep up with the changing world.

Most colleges still push liberal arts degrees as if this was 1912, even though they know the degree does not prepare students for employment any more. Most parents want their kids to get a college degree without understanding the ramifications. They have bought the story that a college education will ensure their children are better off than they are. While true in the 1950s and 1960s, this is no longer true.

Certainly we need general education degrees for teachers, but we graduate more people with degrees in education than there are jobs.

I suspect the liberal arts college system is simply perpetuating itself at a great cost to society.

I'm not sure what the solution is since it is highly unlikely that we will ever see a resurgence in manufacturing in the USA.

We certainly could use more engineers and scientist, but there is a limit to jobs available in pure science and engineering.

I just don't see a service economy as any solution to the loss of manufacturing of durable goods, but none of the politicians has anything but lip service to the problem.
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Old 6th September 2012, 03:52 PM   #136
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Liberal arts degrees are valuable for higher degrees like law and business. They teach people how to think critically and objectively. They educate the human side of people, which is sorely needed now. We have a bunch of immature idiots trying to make moral and ethical decisions in areas like law and politics. These folks clearly have no capacity for rational thought as taught by a good liberal arts degree.

Otherwise, just go to a trade school.
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Old 6th September 2012, 03:58 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGimp View Post
Most colleges still push liberal arts degrees as if this was 1912, even though they know the degree does not prepare students for employment any more. Most parents want their kids to get a college degree without understanding the ramifications. They have bought the story that a college education will ensure their children are better off than they are. While true in the 1950s and 1960s, this is no longer true.

Certainly we need general education degrees for teachers, but we graduate more people with degrees in education than there are jobs.
this was written by DF96 in another thread, I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him:

We need to revive the technical colleges which teach practical engineering, as well as the universities teaching the hard theory properly. Instead, we make everyone get a 'degree' with just enough maths to confuse them but not enough to be really useful.
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Old 6th September 2012, 04:10 PM   #138
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There are very few people who actually need to know any math beyond basic stuff. The standards now in the U.S. are to have all high school students know algebra, but some have great difficulty with that. Very few people actually use algebra in real life. It's not necessary.

Students have become "intellectual capital" and that's just wrong. They are human beings first, workers second. Education is supposed to be about the whole person, not just some narrow technical aspect. All this blather about the U.S. being behind the world is just stupid in my opinion. We've long lost the human aspect of education and thus we are fast on the road to fascism through the mechanization and regimentation of society. The idea that a free people are subjected to strict regimentation is absurd in my opinion. We are a free people first!
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Old 6th September 2012, 04:20 PM   #139
M Gregg is offline M Gregg  United Kingdom
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Thats a very interesting comment..

Are we free people? Its the needs of the person and the wants of the people that keep us tied to a working environment..However without that need there would be no industry, no jobs and no retirement..

Here is another example..how can you own a piece of the earth (land) you buy it from someone who owns it before you? go back until there was someone who said this is mine..I have taken possesion of it...We own something that we can't theoretically own.. we create our own reality.
And everyone is sweept along with it..we have very little choice..


Regards
M. Greggch
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Last edited by M Gregg; 6th September 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 6th September 2012, 04:27 PM   #140
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The standards now in the U.S. are to have all high school students know algebra, but some have great difficulty with that.
that was exactly DF96's point. and it seems to happen everywhere around the world.
it's basically let's make everyone learn algebra, without thinking whether they want it, need it or use it. it'd be ok if algebra grew on trees but teaching it actually costs money.
where I live we learn differential calculus in 11th grade and integral calculus in 12th. and some introduction in quantum mechanics, not so basic organic chemistry and whatnot.
I've been active in engineering (misc fields) since I graduated 10 years ago but I couldn't remember what a covalent single bond is if my life depended on it, I'm surprised I even remember the term.
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