Thank you very much for your kind and valuable replies.
I have to say that I TRUST both in measurements than in those test CDs for instance.
I mention the 3D ability of a system as a very telling test and a test extremely easy to perform with the right audio track.
And I understand that music is a very complex signal.
But if a system has big problems even with simple signals can we expect that the same system will perform greatly with a complex one ?
I do not think so.
And also i think that, after choosing a nice source, the audio chain should be built up starting from speakers beacuse speakers have the largest impact on the sound.
There are speakers extremely demanding in term of amplification that could even destroy an amp not suitable for them.
But they sound nice and i can imagine someone to like them.
I had a similar case.
After changing speakers the same amps start to sound much better.
But I am sure that all these could be highlighted with the correct set of measurements.
Speakers are complex loads and sometimes very though loads to drive.
Let say that as a minimum the measurements can predict big issues in the audio chain.
And for me it is already a lot indeed.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
I have to say that I TRUST both in measurements than in those test CDs for instance.
I mention the 3D ability of a system as a very telling test and a test extremely easy to perform with the right audio track.
And I understand that music is a very complex signal.
But if a system has big problems even with simple signals can we expect that the same system will perform greatly with a complex one ?
I do not think so.
And also i think that, after choosing a nice source, the audio chain should be built up starting from speakers beacuse speakers have the largest impact on the sound.
There are speakers extremely demanding in term of amplification that could even destroy an amp not suitable for them.
But they sound nice and i can imagine someone to like them.
I had a similar case.
After changing speakers the same amps start to sound much better.
But I am sure that all these could be highlighted with the correct set of measurements.
Speakers are complex loads and sometimes very though loads to drive.
Let say that as a minimum the measurements can predict big issues in the audio chain.
And for me it is already a lot indeed.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
It could be so, perhaps even should be so, but remember, just as you have extremely difficult to drive loudspeakers, so you have very easy to drive loudspeakers.
Most users don't know a thing about that and will very likely buy those speakers they like in audition. In such cases, it is probably best to select a speaker first and then find a good amp to drive them.
Ooooooh yeah, there are indeed, and we have a resident Amp Killer, our own Wayne, who believes his speakers with a nominal impedance of 1 Ohm are the real deal. Yeah, they need special amplification, but hey, that's just boring details.
Well, there are two of you now, Wayne and you, you can start an on-line club named say "The Amp Killer Society" or "Welding Technology As Applied To Audio".
And yes, all this would be highlighted by standard measuring technology, assuming you can get to it before thick blue smoke comes out of your amplification every time the drummer comes on and you try to draw more than 2 Watts.
But you're right, speakers are complex and not completely predictable loads to drive, all the more so since their characteristics change when they heat up. Very good load tolerance should be present in the amplification, not up to Wayne's Banzai standards perhaps, but still good.
BTW, "Ginetto" sounds a lot more Italian than Norwegian - true?
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One quality I cannot explain is a vertical extension to the sound . This is heard in real life and is typical of Baroque music in a period building . These older buildings are said to use height as air conditioning . When modern concert halls dispensed with the need to do that the music suffered . This quality is noticed by standing up when listening to a hi fi system . OK many simply things have to be right for this to be possible . The quality I refer to I first noticed using the Quad 67 CD player ( designed by Alan Mornington West . Philips transport and Crystal 20 bit Delta Sigma chip ) . The CD 66 was awful ( a generic Philips I suspect ) . The linearity and pure correctness of the CD67 proves CD can have the magic of Vinyl or good FM . The Pioneer CD players I heard recently also have it . It is what I refer to as a broadcast quality of sound . The Teac and Marantz of old ( much loved by many ) didn't , some Denon did .
I am the first to admit this might be my own take on things and unique to my hearing ? I do find it a very quick way to make a snap judgement . For the life of me I have no idea what in the measurements would account for it ? Dynamic range is my best answer . I suspect CD measurements conceal vast difference in performance as far as " real " dynamic range is concerned .That is range free from digital more than analog errors .
I am the first to admit this might be my own take on things and unique to my hearing ? I do find it a very quick way to make a snap judgement . For the life of me I have no idea what in the measurements would account for it ? Dynamic range is my best answer . I suspect CD measurements conceal vast difference in performance as far as " real " dynamic range is concerned .That is range free from digital more than analog errors .
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An interesting point. Nige.
I read somewhere that the truly ideal position for speakers is when their LOWEST placed driver is about 3 feet above our ears, especially in case of jazz and chamber music.
Just for kicks, I tried it a couple of times. All I will say that it creates interesting effects and opens a few new possibilities, but really one must try for oneself.
It's wonderful for what in real life is music you would normally be hearing from a stage, as it places the speakers roughly on the same level.
For studio recordings, it's a moot point - sometimes is sounds good, other times not so good.
I read somewhere that the truly ideal position for speakers is when their LOWEST placed driver is about 3 feet above our ears, especially in case of jazz and chamber music.
Just for kicks, I tried it a couple of times. All I will say that it creates interesting effects and opens a few new possibilities, but really one must try for oneself.
It's wonderful for what in real life is music you would normally be hearing from a stage, as it places the speakers roughly on the same level.
For studio recordings, it's a moot point - sometimes is sounds good, other times not so good.
Hi Dvv ,
The weird thing is this . Get the system set up to be good . Hear how some CD players seem to chop the vertical bit off . I think it must be dynamics and filtering techniques . It is very weird and not obvious when sitting down . Many FM tuners of modest performance on a live broadcasts are much better . I only say this as FM suggests a 40 db dynamic range . CD pretends to have 80 dB + . I suspect CD is 20 dB if being critical . What I mean by that is if we recorded CD on it's proper medium ( stamped discs ) at - 20 db as many are then we only have 20 reasonable dB's of nice waveforms . I heard some piano recording at - 40 dB with supposedly 50 dB still available . No way was that true . A kazoo is what it sounded like . Like the worse crossover distortion you ever heard . OK , I am sure if that test was rerun today it would be much better ? Is the ghost still there is my question ? My ears say it is .
The weird thing is this . Get the system set up to be good . Hear how some CD players seem to chop the vertical bit off . I think it must be dynamics and filtering techniques . It is very weird and not obvious when sitting down . Many FM tuners of modest performance on a live broadcasts are much better . I only say this as FM suggests a 40 db dynamic range . CD pretends to have 80 dB + . I suspect CD is 20 dB if being critical . What I mean by that is if we recorded CD on it's proper medium ( stamped discs ) at - 20 db as many are then we only have 20 reasonable dB's of nice waveforms . I heard some piano recording at - 40 dB with supposedly 50 dB still available . No way was that true . A kazoo is what it sounded like . Like the worse crossover distortion you ever heard . OK , I am sure if that test was rerun today it would be much better ? Is the ghost still there is my question ? My ears say it is .
That would of course have a significant effect on the first floor and (less) ceiling reflection, but in turn would be associated with some assumption as to distance to the listener.
I'm high on true line arrays right now, crossing over low enough to where directionality is absent for the woofers that take over, which can then be positioned for minimizing room mode effects.
Nige, I stopped worrying about all that when I bought that Aussie Real Time DAC, the one with 8 parallel DACs. It has no oversampling and uses only classic analog filters.
Coupled with my Yamaha CDX 993 22 lbs CD player, if there's magic on the CD, I'll hear it. And I do, albeit often with older editions of CDs, from the late 80ies and early 90ies. With modern ones, rarely.
The cost is that the DAC supports only Red Book CDs.
Agreed, Brad.
Which is precisely why I said one should first try it, as so obviously much depends on the room, I'd say even more than with "regular" positioning.
In my case, it's sometimes really way better than normally, some of the time about the same and some of the time not so good. Either way, it's a compromise, unless I use remote controlled lifting devices, so I can change their heigth in a jiffy.
"Height Enhanced Audio" may be the next big thing in audio, I should patent it.
I agree with all of that . Much of CD is shabby . Unlike turntables how the sound is degraded it less obvious .
In England it is the mark of a man to own a house with a tall ceiling . We do OK with our standard 8 foot or 2.4 metre ceilings . My house has good sound yet has the low ceiling . The nicest rooms I ever heard locally are on Walton Street Oxford ( Near Ruskin ) . They are Georgian ( III ? 1790 ? ) . Brick which was a sign of wealth and rare in older Oxford buildings . About 3.5 metre ceilings and I am told horse hair and cows muck / lime plaster . If I ever was to accept Cambridge to be better it is for it's wonderful brick buildings . Both Oxford and Cambridge have near identical stone buildings . So much so that when in Cambridge it is hard to think it is not Oxford .
Michael Gerzon did patent it . He lived off of Walton Street . His system used ideally 9 speakers . The world of coincidences hey ? Percy Wilson also who along with Klipsche , Kellogg ( Rice ) and Voight developed horn speaker theory . Percy lived in Plantation Road off of Walton St .
In England it is the mark of a man to own a house with a tall ceiling . We do OK with our standard 8 foot or 2.4 metre ceilings . My house has good sound yet has the low ceiling . The nicest rooms I ever heard locally are on Walton Street Oxford ( Near Ruskin ) . They are Georgian ( III ? 1790 ? ) . Brick which was a sign of wealth and rare in older Oxford buildings . About 3.5 metre ceilings and I am told horse hair and cows muck / lime plaster . If I ever was to accept Cambridge to be better it is for it's wonderful brick buildings . Both Oxford and Cambridge have near identical stone buildings . So much so that when in Cambridge it is hard to think it is not Oxford .
Michael Gerzon did patent it . He lived off of Walton Street . His system used ideally 9 speakers . The world of coincidences hey ? Percy Wilson also who along with Klipsche , Kellogg ( Rice ) and Voight developed horn speaker theory . Percy lived in Plantation Road off of Walton St .
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It could be so, perhaps even should be so, but remember, just as you have extremely difficult to drive loudspeakers, so you have very easy to drive loudspeakers.
Most users don't know a thing about that and will very likely buy those speakers they like in audition. In such cases, it is probably best to select a speaker first and then find a good amp to drive them.
Ooooooh yeah, there are indeed, and we have a resident Amp Killer, our own Wayne, who believes his speakers with a nominal impedance of 1 Ohm are the real deal. Yeah, they need special amplification, but hey, that's just boring details.
Well, there are two of you now, Wayne and you, you can start an on-line club named say "The Amp Killer Society" or "Welding Technology As Applied To Audio".
And yes, all this would be highlighted by standard measuring technology, assuming you can get to it before thick blue smoke comes out of your amplification every time the drummer comes on and you try to draw more than 2 Watts.
But you're right, speakers are complex and not completely predictable loads to drive, all the more so since their characteristics change when they heat up. Very good load tolerance should be present in the amplification, not up to Wayne's Banzai standards perhaps, but still good.
Hello ! thank you very much for your reply confirming some my beliefs ... because often i am not so convinced of what i believe
always in doubt ... even on Ohm's law
But the story of these speakers it has been a lesson indeed
By the way, what is the Wayne's Banzai ?
Actually Gino was one of the three famous vikings ... you are right
I am a fresh expat for work from Italy
Thank you very much again for your kind and valuable reply
Kind regards,
gino
Could this have something to do with mics placement ?
I think that usually microphones are placed high
and this could influence the reproduced soundstage ?
I think that the best way to assess the quality of a system is a well done CD test like this one ... a little old but always valid tool.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
in this cd there is a track to assess the ability of the system to reproduce the soundstage
This is indeed a very though task for any system
Never heard a system reproducing this track well and sounding bad
You have all here .. a test for linearity ... freq extension ... distortion ... in just one track
Very handy indeed
Regards,
gino
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Nigel, as dvv pointed out, this is all about the quality of the system in an overall sense. It is, or should be, the goal of all setup optimisation, and is due to reducing certain types of distortion to inaudible levels -- it's as simple as that. If you're going to do measurements on it, the only one that really counts is capturing a microphone pickup from in front of the speaker drivers and analysing that.
This capability of a system to throw up a huge sound space which is utterly convincing, no matter where you are in the room can be improved almost without end, in my experience. At the better levels of this quality you can put on the "worst shockers" of CDs and still have this happening - there's always enough information captured even with the most primitive of recording techniques, or the sloppiest or most hamfisted, for the ear/brain to decode the good bits and make full 3D sense of it all ...
Frank
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If you can think of it someone probably already has
If I am to rule myself with my own example, you're right Brad. I started thinking about sex in my late 30ies, until then I didn't think about it, I just did it.
@Ginetto61
Bongiorno, Gino. You may remember that old Yugoslavia, the country I was born in, shared a land border with Italy, plus the Adriatic sea. It should not be surprising then that we followed the Italian scene as a matter of course. If "61" is the year of your birth, you were like 6 or 7 when Little Tony had his megahit "Un cuore matto", not to even mention Celentano, Patti Parvo, Ramazzoti and the rest of them. Today, ask me who's my favorite performer and I'll reply: Zucchero. I sometimes like to say Italians invented music.
"Wayne's banzai logic" is Wayne's view that ALL speakers should be 1 Ohm impedance. I like to tease him about that. Imagine an amp delivering 100/200/400/800 Watts into 8/4/2/1 Ohm - imagine the power supplies, the output stages, the massive heat sinks you would have to have. Economic suicide. Like the Japanese suicide pilots of World War II.
Bongiorno, Gino. You may remember that old Yugoslavia, the country I was born in, shared a land border with Italy, plus the Adriatic sea. It should not be surprising then that we followed the Italian scene as a matter of course. If "61" is the year of your birth, you were like 6 or 7 when Little Tony had his megahit "Un cuore matto", not to even mention Celentano, Patti Parvo, Ramazzoti and the rest of them. Today, ask me who's my favorite performer and I'll reply: Zucchero. I sometimes like to say Italians invented music.
"Wayne's banzai logic" is Wayne's view that ALL speakers should be 1 Ohm impedance. I like to tease him about that. Imagine an amp delivering 100/200/400/800 Watts into 8/4/2/1 Ohm - imagine the power supplies, the output stages, the massive heat sinks you would have to have. Economic suicide. Like the Japanese suicide pilots of World War II.
I think I might have obscured my main point . Identical hi fi system working well with LP and FM sounds a bit lacking in the 3 D when CD . Change only the CD player and all is well ! Same disc , same system . Use a lower grade FM tuner and not get such a degradation .
I have spent a lifetime around Baroque muic and and people with a Baroque mindset . Not sure that I love it . For all that it is as familiar as a cup of tea . I notice when it is not right .
For a wind up at the pub the other night I said " live music is no substitute for the real thing " . Before they realized it was a joke they put up a strong apologetic defense . We then at low cost offered the services of our Neuman mics and alas digital recording gear . Does anyone know about or better still own any Neuman circa 1942 ? The ones used by John are the big diaphragm condenser types . These seem to record most things well . Sometimes ribbons work best , They have a slightly surreal quality which is very flattering to some voices . John has 30 + mics .
One thing that occurs to me . Digital errors are very different . Superficially all is well . It is like " Invasion of the Body Snatchers " all is not well in truth .
1 ohm speakers . Go for it .
I have spent a lifetime around Baroque muic and and people with a Baroque mindset . Not sure that I love it . For all that it is as familiar as a cup of tea . I notice when it is not right .
For a wind up at the pub the other night I said " live music is no substitute for the real thing " . Before they realized it was a joke they put up a strong apologetic defense . We then at low cost offered the services of our Neuman mics and alas digital recording gear . Does anyone know about or better still own any Neuman circa 1942 ? The ones used by John are the big diaphragm condenser types . These seem to record most things well . Sometimes ribbons work best , They have a slightly surreal quality which is very flattering to some voices . John has 30 + mics .
One thing that occurs to me . Digital errors are very different . Superficially all is well . It is like " Invasion of the Body Snatchers " all is not well in truth .
1 ohm speakers . Go for it .
TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik Introduces the VF14K
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obsbYMpRkxc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgn3Nr9WUI ( C 47 ? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUm-VfeCFBI
Enjoy ( Spot the Neumann C47 / Telefunken in the last extract )
Andre Previn said " If asking Mr F about Beethoven , Beethoven would prefer how Mr F interpreted it to how it was in Beethoven's day " . I love professionals .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obsbYMpRkxc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgn3Nr9WUI ( C 47 ? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUm-VfeCFBI
Enjoy ( Spot the Neumann C47 / Telefunken in the last extract )
Andre Previn said " If asking Mr F about Beethoven , Beethoven would prefer how Mr F interpreted it to how it was in Beethoven's day " . I love professionals .
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