Any comments on this Sony amp, topology, build , performance ... ?
DVV,
I have listened to many amps on these lower and or complex loads and they fail miserably, when someone build "state of the art" and charge for it i expect such...
I don't have much tolerance for pam pam products, worse when they are pretenders
a lot of pretender amps are thrown around here as being "good" some even "great" they produce a good chuckle ... 
Really good amplifiers sound good on anything , they breathe life and music into any load , any speaker, they don't need special matching , special cables or special electricity.
Pretenders do ......
See it's like this , plug in SOTA amp, plug in mini -monitor = music, ESL= Music, Ribbon =music , doesn't matter , there will be music, not so for pretenders, they need special cable , special break in, special pre-amp, power cable and lastly special speakers and recordings..
The pretenders have killed Hi-fi , most have now accepted avg as best , as the norm , i have no tolerance for them , they are in and out in 5 mins with me ...
Regards,
DVV,
I have listened to many amps on these lower and or complex loads and they fail miserably, when someone build "state of the art" and charge for it i expect such...
I don't have much tolerance for pam pam products, worse when they are pretenders
a lot of pretender amps are thrown around here as being "good" some even "great" they produce a good chuckle ... Really good amplifiers sound good on anything , they breathe life and music into any load , any speaker, they don't need special matching , special cables or special electricity.
Pretenders do ......
See it's like this , plug in SOTA amp, plug in mini -monitor = music, ESL= Music, Ribbon =music , doesn't matter , there will be music, not so for pretenders, they need special cable , special break in, special pre-amp, power cable and lastly special speakers and recordings..
The pretenders have killed Hi-fi , most have now accepted avg as best , as the norm , i have no tolerance for them , they are in and out in 5 mins with me ...
Regards,
I agree, Wayne, but the supply list of the real deal seems to get shorter every day.
Today, it matters far more that your front plate should be 1 inch thick brushed aluminium than how it sounds, and it's getting worse.
Audio is all but dead in the mainstream, it has moved out into the outskirts of the audio business. It is now more or less the property of small companies, who have no other option to make it but to sound good - the big boys can outspend them to death in advertising budgets.
People are happy with MP3 these days, and in all truth, the way our civilization has become, they don't deserve even that. We have become a cheapskate civilization, where only price matters, and having the latest gadget. The operating mode of the day is superficialty.
Which explains why so many of the new generation are so enchanted with vintage gear - it was truly better built in those days, not all of it, but a fair portion of it. They at least honestly TRIED. Today, it's a fast buck, hit and run world.
No quarter given.
Today, it matters far more that your front plate should be 1 inch thick brushed aluminium than how it sounds, and it's getting worse.
Audio is all but dead in the mainstream, it has moved out into the outskirts of the audio business. It is now more or less the property of small companies, who have no other option to make it but to sound good - the big boys can outspend them to death in advertising budgets.
People are happy with MP3 these days, and in all truth, the way our civilization has become, they don't deserve even that. We have become a cheapskate civilization, where only price matters, and having the latest gadget. The operating mode of the day is superficialty.
Which explains why so many of the new generation are so enchanted with vintage gear - it was truly better built in those days, not all of it, but a fair portion of it. They at least honestly TRIED. Today, it's a fast buck, hit and run world.
No quarter given.
There are used 300.00 amplifiers that will drive anything , why not the expensive pretenders...
I know several $150 used amps I like, Several $800 used amps. How about some preferences in the $300 range? Bummer, several that were $450 amps I have seen bit up to $800. Does that mean the economy is getting better? Or we are running out of the good stuff people had to dump when they lost their jobs?
Time is the key enemy of vintage. As time passes by, there is naturally less and less of it around. The rest is simple logic - if the demand is there, and in fact growing, while the supply is naturally diminishing, the prices will naturally tend to increase.
Just look at the Sansui madness. Their vintage gear has managed to hit astronomical values (not so much in the US as in Europe). There is a cult of Sansui. The fact that they closed their doors for good many years ago only served to raise the bidding prices.
Now it seems it's Marantz' turn, as their prices are on the rise.
As for your above question, try Marantz 170 DC or 300 DC power amps, nominally 85 and 150 WPC. They are straight DC designs, but with no servo - that's a trick not many of the new kids can match. They are well neight perfect, but for a small fault, there's always a damn "but" attached - they use a scheme for switching of bias levels as per two factors (heat and signal level), and it works mostly all right, but here and there, it can get a little confused. Doesn't hurt the sound, but every now and then, you can hear a soft "click" iside as it switches.
They shouldn't cost more than $450 worst case, and in a good condition, too. Of course, the partnering preamps will want their pound of flesh as well. They are very easy to service. The only problem you might have service wise is changing the concentric filter caps - while the 2x68 WPC integrated amp had two decent Elna 15,000uF/56V caps, the 170 DC power amp had one concentric (dual) capacitor rated at 12,000 uF/56V. These are long gone from everybody's production potrfolio, but, fortunately, there is enough space to install two separate caps. I managed to just squeeze in two Vishay/BC Components 22,000 uF/63V caps inside, but just barely. On the other hand, that did increase the capacitance by 50%, no sweat for the rectifier.
And I was rewarded with some (in my view) great sound. It takes about 15 minutes to understand why they were so higly regarded in their day.
A Sansui AU-X701 is also a good deal, but be warned - it uses very complex circuits, so refreshing it with new caps is quite a chore. An excellent layout helps, but it's still hard work. IT's somewhat specific in ciruit design, and as is, it's supplied with two filter caps of just 10,000 uF each - meagre for a nominally 100 WPC amp. But it's sonics are quite good, if you don't push it. I haven't refreshed mine yet, I sort of kept it for last, as I expect quite a bit of work on it.
Thanks. I know the main line companies did make some very good stuff. Sansui rep probably is based on their analog tuners, which were some of the best. The DX-ers want analog. When I went to battle the noise caused by HD FM I kept digital with Kenwood and Nak. The ultra high end tuner craze I don't get, using a silk purse to listen to a sow's ear. Kenwood, Marantz, Onk, Niko, Denon all had high priced, expensive box gear, but without listening, I have no idea. I know I have been very disappointed in every single Sony product I have ever owned. The only saving grace it they all failed soon enough that I could replace them. I was surprised the Kenwood integrated I am trying to reconstruct for a friend (9100) goes for $350 and up. Going inside, I can see why.
Oh for the days when I lived in Boulder and we had a second hand audio store. "Recycled Audio" I think it was called. Bought at 25%, sold at 50%. You could listen to them.
Oh for the days when I lived in Boulder and we had a second hand audio store. "Recycled Audio" I think it was called. Bought at 25%, sold at 50%. You could listen to them.
Not ast all, my pleasure. If you need schematics and service manuals, for the above products, just let me know.
That's odd, because my exeprience with Sony is 100% in the opposite direction. I was extremely satisfied with what I had and have from them.
Their head demagnetizer is the most awesome such muachine I have ever seen.
Their 3950 AM/FM tuner from 1976 is working like a charm, and I daresay, it gives all my other tuners a run for their money, only the reVox B760 beats it (but at around 5 times the cost).
Their TC-K 880 ES casette deck makes tanks jealous of the way it's built. Only the word "outstanding" seems just barely appropriate. That one will never ever leave me, and it was chosen in lieu of a similarly priced Nakamichi. Admittedly, the Sony won on points, but it still won after a month of fiddling around with them 10 hours a day - I'm DAMN pciky when it comes to tape.
The only Sony product I was unhappy with was one of their cheaper TV sets I bought in 1990. I had to resolder its tuner input section every year, or it wouldn't work. Got rid of it and vowed never to buy a Sony TV set since. I have an LG now, as does my son, wife has a Panasonic, and we're all very pleased with them.
The thing about Sony is that, like practically everybody else, you have to know which model to go for. They had some truly incredible pieces of gear, sopme of which redefined the meaning of the phrase "High End" in their time (e.g. Sony TA-E86B on thevintageknob.org , Sony TA-N86B on thevintageknob.org), while others were not quite so revolutionary, but some of the best possible deals in their respective price classes (e.g. Sony TA-5650 on thevintageknob.org, etc).
What always kept them a bit ahead of the pack was their extensive involvement in the professional sector, primarily BETA, which the de facto world standard for pro video. You tend to pick up habits making pro gear.
Hi,
Alas, such Amp's are at the very best I have heard mere pretenders to good sound, next to a good set-up using lowish powered tube gear and high efficiency speakers. The worst sound either like a wet blanket or like haven wood splinters driven under your finger nails.
In part the problem is that about the only way to breath life into most low efficiency speakers is with a stick of Mr. Nobel's invention. They add so much compression that enough power to overcome that would melt their voice-coils and have distortions that would make the Wavac 833A look "low distortion".
So the very concept of an amplifier that can work well with any and all speakers is a pretence, a pose, devoid of reality or truthfulness.
Ciao T
Really good amplifiers sound good on anything , they breathe life and music into any load , any speaker, they don't need special matching , special cables or special electricity.
Pretenders do ......
Alas, such Amp's are at the very best I have heard mere pretenders to good sound, next to a good set-up using lowish powered tube gear and high efficiency speakers. The worst sound either like a wet blanket or like haven wood splinters driven under your finger nails.
In part the problem is that about the only way to breath life into most low efficiency speakers is with a stick of Mr. Nobel's invention. They add so much compression that enough power to overcome that would melt their voice-coils and have distortions that would make the Wavac 833A look "low distortion".
So the very concept of an amplifier that can work well with any and all speakers is a pretence, a pose, devoid of reality or truthfulness.
Ciao T
Hi,
How/why would you conclude it was not very load tolerant?
It uses five pairs of 12A Toshiba vertical mosfets per channel, with hence around 120A single shot peak current ability.
I would expect this Amp to produce a of of power into 2 Ohm. The manufacturer simply has not provided such a rating.
Ciao T
4 Ohm output power : 2x 400W
8 Ohm output power : 2x 200W
Load impedance : 4...16 Ohm
...
Not very load tolerant or is it ........
How/why would you conclude it was not very load tolerant?
It uses five pairs of 12A Toshiba vertical mosfets per channel, with hence around 120A single shot peak current ability.
I would expect this Amp to produce a of of power into 2 Ohm. The manufacturer simply has not provided such a rating.
Ciao T
Hi,
My Gainclone is 40W + 40W and it is a straight DC design. Incidentally, the PSU is a big torroidal transformer and two pairs of 3,300uF/50V Elna Silmic II caps in CRC.
It is a "straightline integrated", british style, input selection (relay), 50K Alps Blue Volume Control, direct to the output Amp, LM3875 with more Elna Silmic II, and baked/burned in/selected/mateched AB Carbon composition resistors.
I keep this one around as "reality-check" any amp that is not at least the equal of this humble little Amp in all areas is basically junk. The one thing it does not is unlimited power, drive super low impedances or stunt-bass.
But everything else it does on a very high level. The number of amplifiers that did a lot worse than this little "reality check" is surprisingly large.
Ciao T
My Gainclone is 40W + 40W and it is a straight DC design. Incidentally, the PSU is a big torroidal transformer and two pairs of 3,300uF/50V Elna Silmic II caps in CRC.
It is a "straightline integrated", british style, input selection (relay), 50K Alps Blue Volume Control, direct to the output Amp, LM3875 with more Elna Silmic II, and baked/burned in/selected/mateched AB Carbon composition resistors.
I keep this one around as "reality-check" any amp that is not at least the equal of this humble little Amp in all areas is basically junk. The one thing it does not is unlimited power, drive super low impedances or stunt-bass.
But everything else it does on a very high level. The number of amplifiers that did a lot worse than this little "reality check" is surprisingly large.
Ciao T
Hi,
I have owned over the time a lot of Sony gear, from the TC-229 Cassette Deck, PCM F1 and APM-6 Monitors to more recently several Sony Trinitron CRT TV's (each sold off and upgraded to a bigger one, starting at 32") and a Sony CRT Rear Projection Set (now with a friend and still going strong at eight years after I bought it)
The 1977 Tape deck was still working and never had a a single service (except occasional hear/pinchroller cleaning) since I got it 2nd hand in the very early 90's, with all seals still unbroken when I finally threw it out fully working in 2006.
In fact, I never had a Sony product that broke down on me or failed to deliver exceptional performance (of course, I know how to pick them). So it seems either you have a talent for picking the lemons, or your Sony and my Sony are different companies bearing the same name...
Ciao T
I have owned over the time a lot of Sony gear, from the TC-229 Cassette Deck, PCM F1 and APM-6 Monitors to more recently several Sony Trinitron CRT TV's (each sold off and upgraded to a bigger one, starting at 32") and a Sony CRT Rear Projection Set (now with a friend and still going strong at eight years after I bought it)
The 1977 Tape deck was still working and never had a a single service (except occasional hear/pinchroller cleaning) since I got it 2nd hand in the very early 90's, with all seals still unbroken when I finally threw it out fully working in 2006.
In fact, I never had a Sony product that broke down on me or failed to deliver exceptional performance (of course, I know how to pick them). So it seems either you have a talent for picking the lemons, or your Sony and my Sony are different companies bearing the same name...
Ciao T
I have not had a Sony TV and I give them credit for high reputation there, except they made the 12" monitors for Apple, and they were total POS. I repaired hundreds of them. Bad power supplies. Every single audio product, most ES, failed. 3 out of 4 NAD's, 2 for 2 HK. (My Elite 300 does not really count as it was not the "modern HK") No failures of Denon, Pioneer, Hafler, Luxman, Marantz, Rotel, Kenwood, Sanyo, Hitachi, Teac, Behringer, DBX, MXR, Heath, Eico, Allide, Dynaco, KLH, or Toshiba. One used Akai amp failed, and I have a Yamaha I was given because of a worn-out 6 gang motorized volume control. I had a CM Labs amp that was unstable the factory gave up on. I had one Parasound and one Cambridge used damaged in shipment, so that does not count. The HCA 1200 Parasound I did get was dropped so hard it folded the front panel flat to the side, but it works fine. I had an e-mu fail.
Thor,
So, you would consider a well constructed Gainclone to be a baseline "90%" amp? I have only heard the chip in poorly built DIY, where it sounds like a big-box AVR. May have to build one one of these days.
It is very ture, thar are a lot of lessor amps for more money.
Your a tub fan, what is out there in the 20W range that is affordable that would be a good test with modern bookshelf speakers? The only tube amps I had failed the wife test totally, but one was a dirt cheap Chinese chassis ( Mengus) I am just playing with, the other the HK that is original, as in original caps. 12W is not quite enough for 87dB monitors in a large room. An old MV-50, VTL? I was going to try and convince Jolida to loan me one, but no luck. I work a couple miles from them.
So, you would consider a well constructed Gainclone to be a baseline "90%" amp? I have only heard the chip in poorly built DIY, where it sounds like a big-box AVR. May have to build one one of these days.
It is very ture, thar are a lot of lessor amps for more money.
Your a tub fan, what is out there in the 20W range that is affordable that would be a good test with modern bookshelf speakers? The only tube amps I had failed the wife test totally, but one was a dirt cheap Chinese chassis ( Mengus) I am just playing with, the other the HK that is original, as in original caps. 12W is not quite enough for 87dB monitors in a large room. An old MV-50, VTL? I was going to try and convince Jolida to loan me one, but no luck. I work a couple miles from them.
Hi,
Try referencing everthing to the neg rail instead of GND, that is let any variation on the neg rail only be a linear (not half-wave rectified) copy of the load current, and with literally zero supply ripple. It's just a different hook-up of passives, R's & C's only, no regulators etc needed, nor any topology change for the choosen feedback or biasing etc.
I found this improves the LM chipamps a great deal, if you look at the PSRR and CMRR plots you'll instantly see why...
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Agree. , it may or may not and yes there are amplifiers out there which sound good on any type of speaker...
Do you know anything about this particular Sony amplifier, topology ?
Also I'm discussing absolutes here , no place for an chip amplifier...
@Tvr,
Sony stuff prior to 95 , we're solid devices , I do believe their later stuff may have issues , I have had problems myself (VHS, DVr )
Stay away from cheap tube amplifiers , if you buy , the jolida's are at least reliable ...
Hi,
The original Gaincard and the "Gainclones" are no muscle Amp's.
Given that I tend to mostly use lowish powered tube gear this represents no problem for me, as my speakers generally benefit more from the quality rather the the quantity of power.
With this one limitation I give them 70% with 100% being for example a Kondo Baransu with real NOS WE 300B's or maybe a Reimyo 300B Amp or similar "extreme exotica".
For the kind of speaker you describe, I think you need at least 70 - 150 Watts. Currently I'm running a 40W (ish) EL34 Push Pull Amp with 89...90dB/2.83V Speakers (3-Way floor standers) in around 35m^2. I find myself occasionally wishing for 3 to 6dB more power (80 - 160W).
A good one to try would be the CAT JL2.
I had occasion servicing one after bad tubes took out cathode resistors and transport damage tore loose the mains transformer from the elastic mountings (and to make a few simple but crucial improvement). Is a jolly decent Amp that is. I'd probably not mind one meself.
Ciao T
The original Gaincard and the "Gainclones" are no muscle Amp's.
Given that I tend to mostly use lowish powered tube gear this represents no problem for me, as my speakers generally benefit more from the quality rather the the quantity of power.
With this one limitation I give them 70% with 100% being for example a Kondo Baransu with real NOS WE 300B's or maybe a Reimyo 300B Amp or similar "extreme exotica".
For the kind of speaker you describe, I think you need at least 70 - 150 Watts. Currently I'm running a 40W (ish) EL34 Push Pull Amp with 89...90dB/2.83V Speakers (3-Way floor standers) in around 35m^2. I find myself occasionally wishing for 3 to 6dB more power (80 - 160W).
A good one to try would be the CAT JL2.
I had occasion servicing one after bad tubes took out cathode resistors and transport damage tore loose the mains transformer from the elastic mountings (and to make a few simple but crucial improvement). Is a jolly decent Amp that is. I'd probably not mind one meself.
Ciao T
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