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Old 24th May 2013, 12:20 PM   #9161
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
No, I don't believe that.
If one of the amps is misbehaving then it will show in the measurements.
If both amps are behaving equally well and both are not clipping, then they will sound (substantially) the same.
Why? Because the measurements show that they amplify all the audio content exactly equally, particularly the transient content. Continuous and constant sinewaves do not reveal much about the amplification behaviour of amplifiers. Well 19k+20k imd is an exception.
Andrew, with all due respect to you, but I find your argument that if the measurements are the same then the sound will be the same to be ridiculous.

A pity we don't leave reasonably near each other - I would love to give you an amp which measures very well indeed but manages to sound dry and disinterested, and another which doesn't measure half as well, but will make you tap your foot to the rythm inside of 5 minutes.

I would just LOVE to hear your comments afterwards.

I would like to remind you that way back in the 70ies, one Julian Hirsch, co-owner of Hirsch-Hook Labs, which did measurements for various US magazines (including AUDIO to which I was subscribed), claimed exactly the same thing - if they measure the same, then they sound the same. Within two months, he was fired from each and every magazine he worked for, and as far as I know, simply sank into oblivion after that (people from the US, please correct me if I'm wrong about his demise).

Andrew, if what you claim was true, there would be no poor amps anywhere to be found, all would be very good. Yet, it is not so, is it?
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:27 PM   #9162
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Measurement of seemingly benign input coupling capacitors reveals mangling of phase to >100Hz, although frequency response appears flat in same region.
a-ha!
dvv said a few pages back that that can be avoided by a good choice of cap value. obviously but what do we do about the ones (hundreds, likely) that were there in the studio gear?
I remember reading on Siegfried Linkwitz's webpage that he suspects phase to be an issue even in the sub 100 Hz region. which makes a lot of sense, because it's not a region where 1 deg of shift equates a head movement 0.1 millimeters. but it looks to me that random speculation is preferred instead of actually testing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Andrew, with all due respect to you, but I find your argument that if the measurements are the same then the sound will be the same to be ridiculous.
no-one denies you that opinion but it should be settled: is this forum a place where opinions are allowed to be made facts? oh, sorry, I forget: it is

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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
A pity we don't leave reasonably near each other - I would love to give you an amp which measures very well indeed but manages to sound dry and disinterested, and another which doesn't measure half as well, but will make you tap your foot to the rythm inside of 5 minutes.
Andrew replied to a post of yours that said amps measuring the same sound different. here you're talking about amps that measure differently.

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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
I would just LOVE to hear your comments afterwards.
huge mistake here.
you are making assumptions about the "opposing" (note the quotes which mean that I don't view this as some kind of war) camp's POV. the "opposing" camp is not proclaiming what you think it is proclaiming.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 24th May 2013 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:30 PM   #9163
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
Whatever a person's background, it doesn't make them immune to expectation bias. The very act of chopping out the old capacitors covered in dust and grime, symbolically dumping them in the bin, getting out shiny new caps and soldering them in with care and attention, smartening up the wiring better than before, vacuuming the dust out. Then the anticipation of powering up, selecting a test track. How could it not sound better!?
While in reality, of course, it sounds exactly the same as before, when it was using caps 35+ years old, which when measured for the most basic aspect of all, capacitance, now have less than 7,000 uF from nominally 15,000 uF caps?

But there is some truth in what you say, I've witnessed it myself a number of times. People think one small move will get them the world, and when instead of getting it they get a modest improvement, they feel sort of cheated.

In my experience, the improvement will ALWAYS be there where a number of 35+ years old components are exchanged for new ones, and even more so when the new ones happen to be high quality components, and possibly even more so if they upgraded the components. Say, took out those rated at 6,800 uF 35 years ago and installing quality new ones rated at 10,000 uF.

And while an improvement will heard rather easily, it is not likely to be a revelation, no sudden light from the sky, no epiphany, no heavenly choire of angels. Quite simply, the amp is allowed to do the best it can, but in the end, it will alway be its design which will impose the final frontier.

But, there's no doubt some placebo effect will be in play. The more reasonable will have it in much smaller doses than the less technically inclined.
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:31 PM   #9164
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Measurement of compression with DEQ2496 shows addition of harmonic distortion. Distortion increases with shorter release times.
That's what I would expect, I suppose, but very interesting. So the extra THD, you're saying, comes from 'feed-through' of the signal to the gain adjustment i.e. a small amount of the un-low pass filtered signal makes its way to the gain adjuster..? In your test, what sort of increase in distortion are you seeing?

If so, presumably such an effect was always present with DBX-type noise reduction? And also with any compressor used when mastering a recording. I could conceive of DSP-based compression that can look ahead and intelligently apply compression to a recording with the bare minimum of added distortion.
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:32 PM   #9165
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
a-ha!
dvv said a few pages back that that can be avoided by a good choice of cap value. obviously but what do we do about the ones (hundreds, likely) that were there in the studio gear?


no-one denies you that opinion but it should be settled: is this forum a place where opinions are allowed to be made facts? oh, sorry, I forget: it is


Andrew replied to a post of yours that said amps measuring the same sound different. here you're talking about amps that measure differently.


huge mistake here.
you are making assumptions about the "opposing" (note the quotes which mean that I don't view this as some kind of war) camp's POV. the "opposing" camp is not proclaiming what you think it is proclaiming.
In which case, I do apologize for my mistake, I misunderstood.
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:35 PM   #9166
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
While in reality, of course, it sounds exactly the same as before, when it was using caps 35+ years old, which when measured for the most basic aspect of all, capacitance, now have less than 7,000 uF from nominally 15,000 uF caps?
The story was that a veteran audio designer's training told him it should sound no different, so I don't think the caps were 35 years old and measuring down significantly.

As it happens I recently measured some 1978 electrolytics (35 years old!) in a Kef speaker and they were almost spot on, as indicated by a multimeter (not a definitive assessment I realise). I'm still going to replace them, but I'm not kidding myself they'll sound much different.

Last edited by CopperTop; 24th May 2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:43 PM   #9167
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
On occasion I have definitely heard strong differences that later were shown to be non-existent.

You reckon you're immune to all of this, do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimenter%27s_bias

The irony is that if a person is unaware of their own biases they begin to feel like some sort of ultra-receptive 'seer' who can perceive differences that lesser mortals can't; differences that don't even show up in any of the puny measurements that mere meter-readers dream up. Their ignorance and weakness actually bolsters their feeling of superiority and omnipotence.
No need to rev up about it ... it's just that this 'bias' thing seems to be dragged out like an convenient salve every time experiences or anomolies don't nicely fit into well known, easily measured scenarios. We are dealing with human hearing here, which can be remarkably acute, or stupidly insensitive, depending upon an enormous number of variables.

Personally, I would like everything I try fiddling with to improve the sound, but that 'bias' hasn't worked for me: I have 'kicked the cat' on many occasions in frustration because I kept going backwards, or nowhere. Only by taking long breathers, for days, weeks -- and many years once -- have I slowly moved forward. I'm my own severest critic, I'll be the first to switch off in disgust, because a 'good idea' ain't ...
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Old 24th May 2013, 12:44 PM   #9168
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
In which case, I do apologize for my mistake, I misunderstood.
maybe it doesn't stand for others. but I for one am trying to see a correlation based on actual tests made in statistically-significant numbers and in the correct context (e.g. all factors unchanged etc). I'm not naive, I do understand that such tests are tedious, time-consuming and costly. in a word, unlikely to be done by DIY-ers. I would bet that many makers have a pretty good idea about why stuff sounds like it does. but, being such a playground where stuff is sold by the hundreds or less to a niche (actually sometimes it's a niche of a niche of a niche) of the market, it's unlikely that they often go public

regarding biases of all sorts. as simple as this is, don't expect many people to agree. fact is that it does happen. not always, but it does happen. it should be excluded as an explanation for different sound on a case-by-case basis, not always.
the same goes for the never ending story of ABX (or any sort of DBT) testing. yes, it has its problems, obviously. and they should be acknowledged. but acknowledging some problematic portion of the issue doesn't make the whole thing wrong. but, again, this generalization game goes with the trade, I don't expect that we free ourselves from the problem any time soon

thing is I'm not all against empiricism and subjectivism. but I started being a skeptic the moment I realized that many of the explanations of perceived differences are plain-out wrong and deny the most basic established facts and even logic. you hear a difference? fine, no problem, I even take you for granted. you provide an explanation that doesn't hold water? I have a problem with that.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 24th May 2013 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 24th May 2013, 01:05 PM   #9169
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Andrew, with all due respect to you, but I find your argument that if the measurements are the same then the sound will be the same to be ridiculous.?
If the amplifiers amplify the same signal differently, then at least one of them is not accurate.

That wil be measureable.
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Old 24th May 2013, 01:19 PM   #9170
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The hard bit is then specifying the measurement procedure that will afford that, unambiguously ...
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