Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

[bcarso]

I may have related my story of the man who worked for the family company, who bought 2 mint (tube) U47s, mic stands, cables, and an Ampex luggable reel-to-reel at a church sale for ten dollars, from the widow of an amateur recordist. He let me use the mics for a while, but when he was laid off I had to return them. I told him what they were worth. Then.

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by dvv

@Ginetto61
Bongiorno, Gino. You may remember that old Yugoslavia, the country I was born in, shared a land border with Italy, plus the Adriatic sea. It should not be surprising then that we followed the Italian scene as a matter of course. If "61" is the year of your birth, you were like 6 or 7 when Little Tony had his megahit "Un cuore matto", not to even mention Celentano, Patti Parvo, Ramazzoti and the rest of them. Today, ask me who's my favorite performer and I'll reply: Zucchero. I sometimes like to say Italians invented music.

Hi ! i am pleased you like italian music. I do not know if italians have invented music, but i think Anglosaxons has sold it a lot more (at least in the western Countries)
We also owe to Them the diffusion of recording and reproducing system

"Wayne's banzai logic" is Wayne's view that ALL speakers should be 1 Ohm impedance. I like to tease him about that.
Imagine an amp delivering 100/200/400/800 Watts into 8/4/2/1 Ohm - imagine the power supplies, the output stages, the massive heat sinks you would have to have. Economic suicide.
Like the Japanese suicide pilots of World War II.

I see ... a very extreme approach
If I had the space i would try horns. You know ... always for the bloody ozone hole.
I heard horns speakers at an audio fair ... Acapella was the brand
the mid high range was sublime ... the bass very much less so
But if you like choirs you should listen them through something like this

thanks againg and kind regards,
gino

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by nigel pearson

I think I might have obscured my main point . Identical hi fi system working well with LP and FM sounds a bit lacking in the 3 D when CD .
Change only the CD player and all is well ! Same disc , same system .
Use a lower grade FM tuner and not get such a degradation .
I have spent a lifetime around Baroque muic and and people with a Baroque mindset . Not sure that I love it . For all that it is as familiar as a cup of tea . I notice when it is not right .
For a wind up at the pub the other night I said " live music is no substitute for the real thing " . Before they realized it was a joke they put up a strong apologetic defense . We then at low cost offered the services of our Neuman mics and alas digital recording gear . Does anyone know about or better still own any Neuman circa 1942 ? The ones used by John are the big diaphragm condenser types . These seem to record most things well . Sometimes ribbons work best , They have a slightly surreal quality which is very flattering to some voices . John has 30 + mics .
One thing that occurs to me . Digital errors are very different . Superficially all is well . It is like " Invasion of the Body Snatchers " all is not well in truth .
1 ohm speakers . Go for it .

Good evening. have you tried a pc based digital source with a usb dac ?
I made some tests and even very cheap equipments seem to sound quite right
To confirm what you say there have been endless discussions about the quality of cd player transports.
Their quality seems indeed to have a big impact on the overall sound quality
Some read bits better than others
Maybe a cd and a cd player is not the best way to start with if the reading is so critical and the outcome so variable
A file wav on a sdd read with a pc and sent to a good asyncronous usb dac could be a more reliable set up.
I plan to have some listening soon
Very basic and extremely cheap equipment with top quality wav tracks.
I am extremely curious ... extremely
I have the feeling that cd players are really things of the past
I read of comparisons between very top cd players and files read with a pc
Very very close in performance ... and undoubtedly much more practical
You can store a number of tracks on a server and then load the internal ssd only with the tracks you want to listen to.
Thanks and regards,
gino

[nigel pearson]

I am so glad where this has gone . I must go the hi fi shows more often . I don't enjoy them . In my work I have sort of been to heaven as far as sound is concerned . Earth is difficult . Me and my Rubber Ducky know how it should be . Concerts are no good . One can not stop the music and have a coffee . Concerts are great so don't let me say otherwise .

Even my friend John agrees that " There is something very rotten in the state of Denmark ( Holland ) " as far as CD is concerned . I watch Frazier the TV show a lot . He is worse than me I feel at being grandiose ?

At least now we know 1 ohm is the correct speaker load .

[fas42]

Originally Posted by nigel pearson

Even my friend John agrees that " There is something very rotten in the state of Denmark ( Holland ) " as far as CD is concerned

Don't be so pessimistic, Nigel! The good sound's there, has been there all along; it's just that people a lot of the time just "don't get it". I've heard many of my 'test' CDs sound abominable on very expensive systems, and have the owner of the setup sniff, and say, "Well, if you're going to bring rubbish like that for me to play, what else can you expect?!" ... I just have to behind his back ...

The simple answer is that you have to be fussy, fussy, fussy ... about everything ...

Frank

[nigel pearson]

Funny to say Denmark when it is the land of Ortofon . They are so like Telefunken .

I once was approached by the tall elderly gentlemen in Germany who I am told rather liked the Garrard 501 which was my baby . He was apparently Ortofon's man during the 1939/45 period . Soon after an Ortofon MC25 calibration came my way , I suspect via him ?

[dvv]

Originally Posted by nigel pearson

Funny to say Denmark when it is the land of Ortofon . They are so like Telefunken .

I once was approached by the tall elderly gentlemen in Germany who I am told rather liked the Garrard 501 which was my baby . He was apparently Ortofon's man during the 1939/45 period . Soon after an Ortofon MC25 calibration came my way , I suspect via him ?

I never liked the sound philosophy of the Scandinavian persuasion, but I must say the Danes are much more active than one would expect from a country that small and that much orientated towards farming. Bruel & Kjaer, Bang & Olufsen, TaCT, Ortofon, Gryphon, Dali, Jamo and a myriad of other companies known around the world. One can't help respecting them.

I have stuck with Ortofon since 1978 to this day, after having had Shure for 7 years and after having tried quite a number of cartriges before settling down with Ortofon. Never looked back.

As for sound philosophy, I much prefer the brawny, sunshine, peaches on the beaches sound of California. In many ways, California is America's audio playground, although MIT and the general Boston area are also very prominent.

[dvv]

Originally Posted by ginetto61

... I heard horns speakers at an audio fair ... Acapella was the brand, the mid high range was sublime ... the bass very much less so.

But if you like choirs you should listen them through something like this ...

From personal experience, I would agree with the above as being a general rule for all full range drivers.

It is illogical to expect one driver to satisfy the criteria generally expected from a large bass driver AND the super light, small high range tweeter, all at the same time.

Their key advantage is the lack of complex crossover networks and associated phase shifts and power robbery.

However, to me, they never fail being great midrange speakers, but with serious lack of bass and usually less than necessary treble.

I believe 3 way speakers have the greatest chance of being optimal, as most quality drivers can be made to work possibly exceptionally well within their duty ranges. Of course, it could be a 4 or 5 way, but I think that's overdoing it, unnecessary complication really.

My own 3 way speaker crosses over from a 10 inch (25 cm) bass to a 4 inch (12 cm) midrange driver at 800 Hz, and from mid to a 1 inch (25 mm) titanium dome at 3.6 kHz. No hint of stress anywhere, even when playing very loud in a big-ish room (say 35 m.sq.). At 92 dB/2.83V/1m efficiency, it is I would say reasonably efficient, so it doesn't need wild power outputs for crescendos. With worst case phase shift of -25 degrees at around 300 Hz and a nominal impedance of 8 Ohms (minimum 6.5 Ohms), it is almost as easy to drive as a single full range, although it's not as efficient as most of them.

But, I'm happy, and that's all that really counts.

[ginetto61]

Originally Posted by dvv

From personal experience, I would agree with the above as being a general rule for all full range drivers.
It is illogical to expect one driver to satisfy the criteria generally expected from a large bass driver AND the super light, small high range tweeter, all at the same time.

This reflects the sensations I had listening to loudspeakers with horns for the mid-high range and woofers "normally" loaded in bass reflex or pneumatic suspension ... the two range do not melt together nicely.
To stay in topic I have the feeling that the spectacular performance wit voices is the result of extremely low distortion in the midband that horns allow to achieve
I would like to listen very much to the klipschorn ... maybe they have also the bass on the same level ?

Their key advantage is the lack of complex crossover networks and associated phase shifts and power robbery.
However, to me, they never fail being great midrange speakers, but with serious lack of bass and usually less than necessary treble.
I believe 3 way speakers have the greatest chance of being optimal, as most quality drivers can be made to work possibly exceptionally well within their duty ranges. Of course, it could be a 4 or 5 way, but I think that's overdoing it, unnecessary complication really.
My own 3 way speaker crosses over from a 10 inch (25 cm) bass to a 4 inch (12 cm) midrange driver at 800 Hz, and from mid to a 1 inch (25 mm) titanium dome at 3.6 kHz. No hint of stress anywhere, even when playing very loud in a big-ish room (say 35 m.sq.). At 92 dB/2.83V/1m efficiency, it is I would say reasonably efficient, so it doesn't need wild power outputs for crescendos. With worst case phase shift of -25 degrees at around 300 Hz and a nominal impedance of 8 Ohms (minimum 6.5 Ohms), it is almost as easy to drive as a single full range, although it's not as efficient as most of them.

Interesting. Do you think that distortion measurements can, at the end of the day, be elected as the best way to assess speakers quality ?
I ask this because I read a lot on the issue and often this is the outcome
For instance a tiring sound is often a distorted sound
I believe in distortion measurements a lot
What do you think ?

But, I'm happy, and that's all that really counts

I have to say that I am also very pleased when some friends appreciate the sound of my system
Usually I invite only friends who eat anything
I am already much frustrated by myself
Thanks and regards,
gino

[dvv]

Gino,

In my experience, distortion measurements tell like 5% of the whole story, unless they are grossly large.

In fact, I am told by those who have measured the performnce of some Son Audax drivers (don't know if they are the ones I use, these were quite expensive in their day), Thorsten Loesch actually, and since I have exceptionally great faith in Thorsten, I believe him. This means that my speaker is actually producing numerically relatively large distortion, yet it sound so that I listen to it from 8 AM to at least 11 PM, each and every day, for years. Obviously, if it was tiring, even adjusting my use getting used to them, I could not do anything like that if they were hard to take.

In fact, I find them to be tonally exceptionally well balanced, nothing pushes, nothing pulls, BUT, most important of all, they have life in them, they are not a cold and sterile electro mechanical device just doing its hob. THIS is what I value the most in any speaker, which is why I generally find say JBL speakers, including the love of my life, the awesome 4312 monitor, so magical and enchanting (you know, sunshine, blue sea, peaches on the beaches and the rest of it) - they often bubble with life, they bring emozione into it, they act as if they do give a damn. Even if they err one way or another, emotion they do have.

Low emotion factor = my low interest factor.

Listening to music with no emotion is to me a waste of time.

Regarding speakers, there are very few objective mesurements I consider to be important. One is the waterfall 3D diagram, which shows the behavior of usually the high range speaker under stress. The more level, the less cone or dome breakup, the better, because this means it will stay composed longer, so my dynamic impulses will remain true to source longer.

The other is its impedance modulus, phase response and composite response in a room. These will show me what is needed in terms of power amplification.
If the impedance falls to say 3 Ohms, and is below 5 Ohms for a while, this means I will need power amp muscle. If it drops below 3 Ohms and/or has large phase shifts of say -60 degrees, this means I am going to need a lot of musche with high load tolerance factor. -60 degree pjase shift in effect means twice the current, so if the speaker dropped to say 2.4 Ohms with a -60 degree phase shift, the amp will be seeing an approximate equivalent to a 1.2 Ohm load and will be VERY hard to drive.

Aside from these obvious things, the only way I assess speakers is by auditioning them with actual music.