Sound Quality Vs. Measurements - Page 851 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th February 2013, 12:00 PM   #8501
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
Frank , that is it in a nutshell .
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 09:29 AM   #8502
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stavanger (NORWAY)
Thank you very much for your kind and valuable replies.
I have to say that I TRUST both in measurements than in those test CDs for instance.
I mention the 3D ability of a system as a very telling test and a test extremely easy to perform with the right audio track.
And I understand that music is a very complex signal.
But if a system has big problems even with simple signals can we expect that the same system will perform greatly with a complex one ?
I do not think so.
And also i think that, after choosing a nice source, the audio chain should be built up starting from speakers beacuse speakers have the largest impact on the sound.
There are speakers extremely demanding in term of amplification that could even destroy an amp not suitable for them.
But they sound nice and i can imagine someone to like them.
I had a similar case.
After changing speakers the same amps start to sound much better.
But I am sure that all these could be highlighted with the correct set of measurements.
Speakers are complex loads and sometimes very though loads to drive.
Let say that as a minimum the measurements can predict big issues in the audio chain.
And for me it is already a lot indeed.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 09:51 AM   #8503
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
... And also i think that, after choosing a nice source, the audio chain should be built up starting from speakers beacuse speakers have the largest impact on the sound. ...
It could be so, perhaps even should be so, but remember, just as you have extremely difficult to drive loudspeakers, so you have very easy to drive loudspeakers.

Most users don't know a thing about that and will very likely buy those speakers they like in audition. In such cases, it is probably best to select a speaker first and then find a good amp to drive them.

Quote:
... There are speakers extremely demanding in term of amplification that could even destroy an amp not suitable for them. But they sound nice and i can imagine someone to like them. ...
Ooooooh yeah, there are indeed, and we have a resident Amp Killer, our own Wayne, who believes his speakers with a nominal impedance of 1 Ohm are the real deal. Yeah, they need special amplification, but hey, that's just boring details.

Quote:
... I had a similar case.

After changing speakers the same amps start to sound much better.

But I am sure that all these could be highlighted with the correct set of measurements.

Speakers are complex loads and sometimes very though loads to drive.
Let say that as a minimum the measurements can predict big issues in the audio chain. ...
Well, there are two of you now, Wayne and you, you can start an on-line club named say "The Amp Killer Society" or "Welding Technology As Applied To Audio".

And yes, all this would be highlighted by standard measuring technology, assuming you can get to it before thick blue smoke comes out of your amplification every time the drummer comes on and you try to draw more than 2 Watts.

But you're right, speakers are complex and not completely predictable loads to drive, all the more so since their characteristics change when they heat up. Very good load tolerance should be present in the amplification, not up to Wayne's Banzai standards perhaps, but still good.

BTW, "Ginetto" sounds a lot more Italian than Norwegian - true?
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.

Last edited by dvv; 28th February 2013 at 09:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 10:01 AM   #8504
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
One quality I cannot explain is a vertical extension to the sound . This is heard in real life and is typical of Baroque music in a period building . These older buildings are said to use height as air conditioning . When modern concert halls dispensed with the need to do that the music suffered . This quality is noticed by standing up when listening to a hi fi system . OK many simply things have to be right for this to be possible . The quality I refer to I first noticed using the Quad 67 CD player ( designed by Alan Mornington West . Philips transport and Crystal 20 bit Delta Sigma chip ) . The CD 66 was awful ( a generic Philips I suspect ) . The linearity and pure correctness of the CD67 proves CD can have the magic of Vinyl or good FM . The Pioneer CD players I heard recently also have it . It is what I refer to as a broadcast quality of sound . The Teac and Marantz of old ( much loved by many ) didn't , some Denon did .

I am the first to admit this might be my own take on things and unique to my hearing ? I do find it a very quick way to make a snap judgement . For the life of me I have no idea what in the measurements would account for it ? Dynamic range is my best answer . I suspect CD measurements conceal vast difference in performance as far as " real " dynamic range is concerned .That is range free from digital more than analog errors .

Last edited by nigel pearson; 28th February 2013 at 10:05 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 03:38 PM   #8505
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
An interesting point. Nige.

I read somewhere that the truly ideal position for speakers is when their LOWEST placed driver is about 3 feet above our ears, especially in case of jazz and chamber music.

Just for kicks, I tried it a couple of times. All I will say that it creates interesting effects and opens a few new possibilities, but really one must try for oneself.

It's wonderful for what in real life is music you would normally be hearing from a stage, as it places the speakers roughly on the same level.

For studio recordings, it's a moot point - sometimes is sounds good, other times not so good.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 05:07 PM   #8506
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
Hi Dvv ,

The weird thing is this . Get the system set up to be good . Hear how some CD players seem to chop the vertical bit off . I think it must be dynamics and filtering techniques . It is very weird and not obvious when sitting down . Many FM tuners of modest performance on a live broadcasts are much better . I only say this as FM suggests a 40 db dynamic range . CD pretends to have 80 dB + . I suspect CD is 20 dB if being critical . What I mean by that is if we recorded CD on it's proper medium ( stamped discs ) at - 20 db as many are then we only have 20 reasonable dB's of nice waveforms . I heard some piano recording at - 40 dB with supposedly 50 dB still available . No way was that true . A kazoo is what it sounded like . Like the worse crossover distortion you ever heard . OK , I am sure if that test was rerun today it would be much better ? Is the ghost still there is my question ? My ears say it is .
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 05:10 PM   #8507
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Canoga Park, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
An interesting point. Nige.

I read somewhere that the truly ideal position for speakers is when their LOWEST placed driver is about 3 feet above our ears, especially in case of jazz and chamber music.

Just for kicks, I tried it a couple of times. All I will say that it creates interesting effects and opens a few new possibilities, but really one must try for oneself.
That would of course have a significant effect on the first floor and (less) ceiling reflection, but in turn would be associated with some assumption as to distance to the listener.

I'm high on true line arrays right now, crossing over low enough to where directionality is absent for the woofers that take over, which can then be positioned for minimizing room mode effects.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 05:15 PM   #8508
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel pearson View Post
Hi Dvv ,

The weird thing is this . Get the system set up to be good . Hear how some CD players seem to chop the vertical bit off . I think it must be dynamics and filtering techniques . It is very weird and not obvious when sitting down . Many FM tuners of modest performance on a live broadcasts are much better . I only say this as FM suggests a 40 db dynamic range . CD pretends to have 80 dB + . I suspect CD is 20 dB if being critical . What I mean by that is if we recorded CD on it's proper medium ( stamped discs ) at - 20 db as many are then we only have 20 reasonable dB's of nice waveforms . I heard some piano recording at - 40 dB with supposedly 50 dB still available . No way was that true . A kazoo is what it sounded like . Like the worse crossover distortion you ever heard . OK , I am sure if that test was rerun today it would be much better ? Is the ghost still there is my question ? My ears say it is .
Nige, I stopped worrying about all that when I bought that Aussie Real Time DAC, the one with 8 parallel DACs. It has no oversampling and uses only classic analog filters.

Coupled with my Yamaha CDX 993 22 lbs CD player, if there's magic on the CD, I'll hear it. And I do, albeit often with older editions of CDs, from the late 80ies and early 90ies. With modern ones, rarely.

The cost is that the DAC supports only Red Book CDs.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 05:18 PM   #8509
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarso View Post
That would of course have a significant effect on the first floor and (less) ceiling reflection, but in turn would be associated with some assumption as to distance to the listener.

I'm high on true line arrays right now, crossing over low enough to where directionality is absent for the woofers that take over, which can then be positioned for minimizing room mode effects.
Agreed, Brad.

Which is precisely why I said one should first try it, as so obviously much depends on the room, I'd say even more than with "regular" positioning.

In my case, it's sometimes really way better than normally, some of the time about the same and some of the time not so good. Either way, it's a compromise, unless I use remote controlled lifting devices, so I can change their heigth in a jiffy.

"Height Enhanced Audio" may be the next big thing in audio, I should patent it.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2013, 05:31 PM   #8510
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Canoga Park, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post

"Height Enhanced Audio" may be the next big thing in audio, I should patent it.
If you can think of it someone probably already has It's like what someone once said about sex.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality Control differences = variations in sound quality? KT Class D 3 4th June 2014 12:02 AM
Sound Card for Measurements Marik Solid State 2 2nd January 2012 08:59 PM
Sound Card Recommendations (For Audio Measurements) dchisholm Equipment & Tools 5 16th July 2011 09:40 AM
How to protect sound card during amp measurements? okapi Everything Else 13 2nd September 2008 03:06 PM
Sound cards - test and measurements jackinnj Everything Else 2 5th July 2003 03:02 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:11 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2