Sound Quality Vs. Measurements - Page 823 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd January 2013, 07:25 AM   #8221
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Of course! We are talking about a piano here, so that instrument should subjectively be sized correctly. An orchestra, or recorded Broadway production will come across very differently.

I got "into trouble" in another forum talking about this, but my goal is always for the speakers to completely disappear, be 100% invisible in auditory terms. In practical terms, that means if someone is brought into the room blindfolded that he will find it impossible to locate the speakers even if allowed to roam the room freely. Only by stumbling upon them, and touching them will he be certain that he's found them ...

Frank
For what it's worth, I agree with you completely, Frank.

This is one of the reasons why I went for relatively large speakers - in my experience, a large sized sound requires a 3 way large loudspeaker. Small speakers, while they can be good, still always sound small.

Regarding active speakers, my experience has it that it's best to go to companies which have been making them for 30+ years. The old Philips Motional NFB speakers from the close of the 70ies - and their later Grundig version - were excellent, in my view.

If purchasing ready made, I'd be looking at two companies: ATC from UK and Klein & Hummel from Germany. Both I think are excellent examples of their breed.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2013, 09:22 AM   #8222
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kuala Lumpur
British speakers tend to be small or at least narrow because the average British house is tiny. Millionaires with large houses can afford the big Tannoy, KEF and B&W models.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2013, 10:45 AM   #8223
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oxfordshire
I had an experience recently that shows a remarkable quality of real music which hi fi sometimes looses ( always ? ) . I would call it tonality due to timing . Beethoven and Britten . The Beethoven was for all the world 78's , the Britten what it would be on CD or Vinyl allowing for how they differ . I noticed for the first time in my life a micro world of texture in the Beethoven . I also heard stereo which is seldom so obvious . Sheldonian theater in Oxford . The point is , same musicians , same place , same time , same mood . Not the same sound . Similar numbers of players and instruments used . The Britten arrangements of Mahler also different . I am not saying I never heard it before , this time I noticed how important it is .

Big fi . If listening to E L P Nutrocker one needs big fi ( LP only perhaps ) .
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2013, 11:34 AM   #8224
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsrsb View Post
British speakers tend to be small or at least narrow because the average British house is tiny. Millionaires with large houses can afford the big Tannoy, KEF and B&W models.
Very possibly so, I really wouldn't know what an average British living room looks like or how big or small it may be.

But that's not the point. The point is that we are being told that small speakers lack nothing, and in fact, "image" better than large speakers. Both are outright lies. No doubt some small speakers will do a bit of bass better than others, and surely some small speakers will "image" very well, but both are traits not naturally inherent to small speakers as such. They are the result of better or worse quality engineering, therefore only from case to case. Just as everything else.

The problem of refraction, which naturally increases in importance as the size of the speaker increases, is hardly a new one. AR for example tackled it on my 94s by surround the tweeter with a porous cloth, which serves to prevent undue refraction. Avalon and my speakers, and lately many more, use shortened and angled sides and tops to reduce the available refraction area. Sony use machined speaker fronts on their GS series to create a rough surface, naturally not prone to refraction. And so forth.

Consequently, large speakers are, also on a piece by pice basis, more or less prone to rfraction, just like small ones. Some suffer from it, some not so much.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd January 2013, 11:36 AM   #8225
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel pearson View Post
I had an experience recently that shows a remarkable quality of real music which hi fi sometimes looses ( always ? ) . I would call it tonality due to timing . Beethoven and Britten . The Beethoven was for all the world 78's , the Britten what it would be on CD or Vinyl allowing for how they differ . I noticed for the first time in my life a micro world of texture in the Beethoven . I also heard stereo which is seldom so obvious . Sheldonian theater in Oxford . The point is , same musicians , same place , same time , same mood . Not the same sound . Similar numbers of players and instruments used . The Britten arrangements of Mahler also different . I am not saying I never heard it before , this time I noticed how important it is .

Big fi . If listening to E L P Nutrocker one needs big fi ( LP only perhaps ) .
Agreed. Size matters.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2013, 04:25 AM   #8226
gootee is offline gootee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Indiana
Blog Entries: 1
I actually took off from work(!) to stay home and listen to my Magnepan speakers, when I first got them. I was THAT amazed. And I don't even have the bigger OR newer ones. IMO, they couldn't be bettered by new speakers for less than about $5000 a pair. But used, they cost only about $500 a pair (for a pair of MG-12/QR; goal: MG-3.6/R or better. The Magnepan ribbons are often cited as the best tweeter ever made. And the bass is often said to be lacking, but is actually literally perfect, with no booming resonance artifacts, which most box-speaker listeners seem to have been trained to expect.).

If you have heard some and weren't totally-blown-away by them, then assume it was improper room placement and/or room treatment (or ill-trained expectations). It HAD to be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2013, 05:04 AM   #8227
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gootee View Post
If you have heard some and weren't totally-blown-away by them, then assume it was improper room placement and/or room treatment (or ill-trained expectations). It HAD to be.
One of the best rooms at the recent audio show used these. Trouble was, they brilliantly highlighted a change of source type: music server good, CD transport not good; the poorer sound would not be tolerable for me. So, having "great" speakers is not going to solve your problems elsewhere ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2013, 07:13 AM   #8228
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Tom, Frank makes a powerful point here.

It is also my experience that when people are suddenly faced with a top quality, though perhaps not so well known, product, which does its job with flying colours, in most cases they will not like it.

Chances of this are the greatest with loudspeakers. They tend to show up all the little and big problems in any system. And people are vain, they actually don't want to suddenly discover that their say CD player, which they hold to be well neigh perfect (usually without much substance), is in fact a mediocre unit at best, only their speakers never managed to show it up.

The least chance goes to power amps. This only because they are much more easily explainable, say more power, more output devices, bigger caps, etc.

But when you achieve a great marriegae between an amp and a pair of speakers, meaning real life synergy, then you're in real trouble. People look at you like you are some kind of pervert lurking in dark, with the sole job of making people unhappy.

My own speakers pair exceptionally well with my Karan and my HK 6550 integrateds. Two friends, both sworn tube lovers, with componantes from Conrad-Johnson, VTL, Infinity andsuch like, whistfully accused me of pulling a dirty trick of some kind, because they felt I got a typical SET tonal quality without any SET shortcomings and with all the advantages of SS speaker control and power.

But when I told one of them, years ago, that Infinity speakers were known for their difficulty of drive (damn big 4 way speaker, with a 12 or even mayde 15" bass, lower mid cone, upper mid EMIM, top EMIT) and were by default a bad match for the VTL monoblocs, he still bought the Infinities. But I really killed him when I took my HK 6550 integrated to his place and had it run the bass unit. All this spanned a period of some 10 years before he got the point. The HK drove those bass speakers with aplomb, its nominal 50 WRMS/8 Ohms power output notwithstanding. The VTLs are rated at 60 WRMS/8 Ohms. They sound good, but need effcient speakers to do their stuff.

There are oh so many cases like that around. That guy felt bad because a $500 integrated did a better job than his $5,000 monoblocs, but he was the one who caused it all with a poor amp-speaker match. Has he done anything about it? Of course not! How can he admit that a mass produced HK does better with his speakers that the revered David Manley VTL?
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2013, 07:29 AM   #8229
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
diyAudio Member
 
a.wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Big Fi , is what is known here to me , as Big mouth sound , where in everything sounds big , 12ft wide female voices , every instrument big , nothing sizes correctly , big ESL's and horn speakers i have heard over the years does this , with a big clear oversized sound.

Hi-fi is at its best when it gets out of the way , where there is no recording , but the sense of live instruments and scale, some call this, the " they are here " or "you are there "presence, the best of them does both. The sizing is very important for realism , a singular voice cannot be as big as the choir , the tympani's have to have power , mas violins should be discernible as such and not sound as one ...

I do agree with Gootee about box overhang , or box speakers at their worst , the panel speakers do have an unnatural decay too, real bass and drums have a natural "hang time " and decay , fullrange panel speakers get this wrong IMO, along with a lack of percussive energy , they do get other things right, but pianos for eg. lack realism and power on everyone except the big apogees i have heard over the years ..

I'm also happy to announce the amp widower is a favorite amongst the maggie crowd and do agree panel speakers can be a bitch to setup and get right, big power supply need only apply.

Last but not least , Spendor is still around , go figure .....
__________________

Last edited by a.wayne; 23rd January 2013 at 07:35 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2013, 08:03 AM   #8230
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Wayne, getting it wrong is the easiest way to go for anyone.

Just as I object to the small sound of miniature speakers, I also object to unnaturally big sund from big speakers. As you said, a female voise 12 feet wide is doing something really wrong.

As I see it, big boxes should be able to allow for a freedom of sound, from compession caused by speakers, NOT to enlrage anything, just let it play at its natural size.

The question is: when will you KNOW you have agood speaker?

One way is what Tom said - when you are willing to fool around with your job because your speaker entices you to listen more and more. That's a good sign, no doubt.

In my case, I know I have a great speaker because it will do what it does with just about any amp I can throw at it, the lowly Toshiba 45 (El Cheapo delivring 40 WRMS/8 Ohms) and with the high-up Karan (180 WRMS/8 Ohms), but while doing its stuff, it will clearly show the differences between any two amps. It is NOT indifferent to amp quality, and will clearly let you know whether it's the Karan, or the HK, or the Sansui (yep, got one of those as well, model AU-X 701, nominally 100 WRMS/8 Ohms), or the Marantz.

I do believe that because this is o I sometimes come across as perhaps oddly biased in my tastes. This may be so, but I simply enjoy changing the scene every now and then. Tonally, the Karan is easily the best of the lot, but fantastically (to me, at least), the lowly HK 6550 comes amazingly close to the Karan, with Marantz firmly holding the third place. Currently, Sansui is off the list simply because it badly needs a complete refresh, after 29 years of service life, it's earned it fair and square. THEN I can compare it with fairness.
__________________
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality Control differences = variations in sound quality? KT Class D 3 4th June 2014 12:02 AM
Sound Card for Measurements Marik Solid State 2 2nd January 2012 08:59 PM
Sound Card Recommendations (For Audio Measurements) dchisholm Equipment & Tools 5 16th July 2011 09:40 AM
How to protect sound card during amp measurements? okapi Everything Else 13 2nd September 2008 03:06 PM
Sound cards - test and measurements jackinnj Everything Else 2 5th July 2003 03:02 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:00 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2