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Old 18th January 2013, 02:51 PM   #8171
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Yes, but Wayne, you are THE exception, not the average. You cannot rely on yourself to be the standard.

It's like saying that if it isn't a 42" D cup, it ain't no woman.
I'm more a 36 "DD cup kinda guy ...

When using SS amps you will always need to use more power than those using tooobs because you cannot listen to an SS to its last watt, unlike tooobs, from experience 33% on the avg , really good ones about 55-60% max before you reach for the volume control , tooobs are much different , far more forgiving , reaching into its full power output at 1%thd and all is well ....

Secondly , i have never heard a speaker that did not benefit from big power, even high efficiency ones ...
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:13 PM   #8172
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
I sort of laugh and sigh about this at the same time, that seemingly very few people get it -- that one can get quite excellent sound from relatively ordinary equipment if one goes about it the right way. It's within most people's grasp really, but ego, market pressures as you say, and inertia keep it just beyond their reach, mostly, I'm afraid to say ...

Cheers,
Frank
Vanity, Frank, vanity. To paraphrase Shakespeare - vanity, thy name is audiophile.

You have to have it bigger than the Joneses across the road. And the industry is quietly feeding this frenty simply because it's for its own benefit, they make more flogginh a 100 WRMS amp tha a 50 WRMS amp.

The writing was on the wall since 1975, when the craze was who's going to make a more powerful receiver? The Day Of Monster Receivers. If memory serves, it had come to point where Sansui had a detachable power section from the tuner/preamp section, and something over 300 WRMS.

That's the bugbear of the consumer society - very soon in the game, all sight is lost of what is truly essential, what it's all about, in favor of gadgets and serving the basic need rather than personal vanity.

Today is even worse, just look at how they sell cars, what is standard, and what is now optional - like (WOW!!!) backside pockets on the front seats. That has become an optional item.

In modern audio, I understand that you don't sell if you haven't got at least 5, and of late 7 separate channels. How many more will they need to add to make it the real deal?

But, I still keep saying - Da Man is the guy who makes a sweet sounding device without any exotic parts, but with off-the-shelf parts. Look at Otala's example non-TIM amp from 1978 or so; mostly off-the-shelf parts, although he did use two rather exotic dual transistors for the day, and still rare and damn expensive even today. But people got around that by buying like 100 equivalent transistors and pairing them manually. As far as I could tell/hear, there was no sound penalty.
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Last edited by dvv; 18th January 2013 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:18 PM   #8173
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Yes, that just about sums up the capacitor size thread. As it is somewhat counter-intuitive (to those who want ever bigger caps) I assume that many people will continue to use lots of big caps with barely sufficient transformer voltages. Journalists will continue to judge caps and transformers by size alone, when a 50V 500VA transformer might work much better on real music than a 40V 800VA transformer.
Well, it stands to reason, doesn't it?

What use are mammoth capacitors if they are charged by a teeny weeny transformer?

Ultimately, it all boils down to a good balance.
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:25 PM   #8174
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
to me this topic is very interesting.
it's my feeling that the "amp with cojones" subject is surrounded by an aura of myth.
I often hear claims that even a speaker with benign impedance and moderate sensitivity needs a huge amp so it can sing. I've been trying to investigate if such claims can be somehow supported by an ignored phenomena that is measurable and quantifiable, with no success.
I believe that's because you would need to be measuring and quantifying vanity, supported by ignorance.

And the audio industry, for reasons of profit. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot buy a say 2x50 W device with what should have been done in the first place, for that you MUST buy the 100 W device. And pay more, of course.

And, to add insult to injury, the moder mastering processes for CDs are all about how to make them sound louder and louder, at the expense of the actual dynamic range, which is decreasing, and thus reducing the need for spare power needed to reproduce them faithfully.
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:26 PM   #8175
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Why higher voltage vs VA ..?

How can a 50v 500va transformer make an amp sound better than an 40v /800va one , i don't get this , big transformer big cap bank , yes ..

The larger VA oversized transformer will have less noise for sure .....
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:36 PM   #8176
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
I'm more a 36 "DD cup kinda guy ...

When using SS amps you will always need to use more power than those using tooobs because you cannot listen to an SS to its last watt, unlike tooobs, from experience 33% on the avg , really good ones about 55-60% max before you reach for the volume control , tooobs are much different , far more forgiving , reaching into its full power output at 1%thd and all is well ....

Secondly , i have never heard a speaker that did not benefit from big power, even high efficiency ones ...
True for SS amps, but a 10W tube job cannot equal a 100W SS job for sheer voltage swing, not to even mention current. And, almost always working against the tubes, is their price plus the price of high quality output transformers.

As for your second comment, that depends what you consider "big power" and what you are comparing it with. I do not believe it's so much the extra power, as it's the extra engineering gone into the more powerful and hence more expensive amp. Manufacturers in general tend to overdo the savings bit for lower powered amps.

The problem is that "big power" is closley knit together with loudspeaker efficiency and the room they need to fill with sound. Remember, 3 dB more speaker effciency means half the power for the same SPL.

Realistically speaking, you yourself do not have speakers, you have short ciruits in drag. Is that even legal?

Kidding aside, Wayne, how efficient are your speakers?
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Old 18th January 2013, 05:49 PM   #8177
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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I would say, but it will be a distraction ...

anyway its a linesource so it does get pretty loud regardless of the amp used on the krell i can pretty much go as loud as i could want , since i listen in the 82-84 db din range with peaks in the 94-96 db range , regardless its pretty sad sensitivity wise and switching to neo's would help , but big amplfiers are not an issue to find ...

For reference i very rarely exceed 10amp , except when playing large scale music , opera or choir , the scale and presence is amazing , of course this is when the amps run for cover , always rest them after such a powerful track, well except the Krell , it comes alive down there ....
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:05 PM   #8178
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One thing I will look at soon is if a series resistance with a tweeter is a good idea . As someone said a few days ago 16 ohms is better load ( why not higher ) . Take for example a very humble power op-amp like TDA 2040 . If driving 4 ohms reactive at 1 watt it will not be the stuff of dreams . Run the TDA 2040 at 8V RMS output into a restive load it will almost look like class A . A potential divider driving the tweeter at a 10 to 1 reduction might offer a bit of zero cost magic . As far as I know no one ever said this ? I tested one of these chips today . I wanted a quick answer to a question before I make a serious time investment , it was that or a L165 in my useful box . It is an industrial application which requires stability and current . I measured the distortion performance by comparison harmonics as I had no high grade signal generator handy ( 6 VRMS 10 kHz 120R load ) . It was a very pleasant surprise . I ran the amp at a gain of 34 potted down to 34 to mimic a buffer ( recommended circuit 680R , 22K g = 33.35 ) . I will try to improve upon that . Remarkable seeing as it has excessive gain that it gives low distortion .

Finding a better window for the tweeter to work at and spend not a penny more . A 20 dB improvement in crossover distortion effects ( doubtless more as the load is much nicer ) . I have haunch this might sound nicer than exulted amps running at sub 1 watt . I base this on how we accept op amps as transparent and accurate . If we don't load them too much they pretend to be class A so well we beleive it . A silk purse out of a sows ear .
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:18 PM   #8179
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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So it's about output impedance then .... ?
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Old 18th January 2013, 08:27 PM   #8180
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That's why a divider . If a 8 ohm tweeter is fed from 1 ohm it's not too bad . If used without there might be a slight lack of damping which might be desirable . If the dreaded ferror fluid is used I would imagine that to be possible . As a PA friend said we should not use the amp to damp the speaker . Making the phase angle more resistive by the simplest route is no bad thing . The BBC used auto transformers to tweeters . That is ideal if the quality high enough . Then the damping increases . It can be made from RF materials as no bass required . I imagine a common mode choke core would work .
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