Sound Quality Vs. Measurements - Page 8

tvrgeek · 24th December 2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay

I didn't know if there exist anybody who likes the frequency roll-off and distortion of a 4" boombox driver

Anyhow, 4" boombox speakers are usually crossoverless, hence very responsive and sonically can be more enjoyable than many flat, LR-4 high end speakers with notch filters here and there.

Everything can be random and subjective to a group of people, but many things can be in order and objective to another group of people

Of course, boom boxes, typically have massive EQ applied. I had a Panasonic many years ago that actually was pretty clean. If the EQ is applied to balance the perception, and not try and push the pooor 50 cent driver where it should no go, they can serve their purpose.

About two projects in the future is a Foxtex single driver to see what the hype is about. As I get older and the fluid in my ears thickens, I can already no longer hear a pure 20K tone (yes, I was tested) so a 70 to 12K may be fine for background listening. My plan is to use some of the more advanced digital processing for equalization so I can preserve the phase. Of course, nothing else in the entire recording process preserved the phase, so I am skeptical it will be any better than a well designed multi-driver system.

john curl · 24th December 2011, 04:39 PM

Tvgeek, please be careful with your assertions, UNLESS they have been cleared through your wife! Tweaks often work, but they may not make any sense to the 'sensible'.
Also, I doubt that changing out the power caps will do much, unless you replace them with REALLY EXPENSIVE CAPS like the finest Japanese or especially BLACK GATE. As we age, we do become more forgiving, BUT the 20KHz treble peak in my WATT 1's still require a sock over the tweeter to tame it down, just like it did, 15 years ago.

counter culture · 24th December 2011, 07:47 PM

This stuff gets old really quick.

The only purpose it serves that I can see is is to give a few people the opportunity to invite themselves into the elite class of the 'golden eared'. Paradoxically it seems that the older you all get and the worse your hearing the less capacity you have to resist the temptation to see yourselves as the true arbiters of quality.

The really disappointing aspect is the propensity for those with genuine engineering capacity to jump from side to side of the objective/subjective fence, presumably in the hope of presenting a moving target and avoiding the ignominy of having a hit scored against you, which would undoubtedly tarnish your exaggerated sense of self-importance.

What are you? Engineers or mystics?

I'm both, BUT NOT IN THE SAME BREATH.

If I was responsible for some of the stuff I've seen written here I'd gag on my own vomit.

Pano · 24th December 2011, 08:26 PM

Thanks CC, now tell us what you really think. Nicely complimentary to the good folks here on the forum, your fellow members. And a Merry Christmas to you, too.

ThorstenL · 24th December 2011, 08:38 PM

Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by counter culture

The really disappointing aspect is the propensity for those with genuine engineering capacity to jump from side to side of the objective/subjective fence

The thing you fail to realise, is that the "fence" is only in your mind. In reality there is no fence. And because this fence is just in your mind it may look straight to you, yet in fact it zigzags badly, just in a way that from your perspective is not visible...

So what looks to you like I am appearing on both sides of the fence (which you rationalise as me jumping hither and thither, as you cannot accept that I actually walked straight through the fence) is just me walking in a straight line across an open country side and enjoying my stroll... There is no fence where I walk, even if you keep seeing it.

Oh. And I find most engineers are actually mystics, have to be believe into some of the preposterous notions routinely advanced (Atoms? Pshaw - no such thing... Light, well it cannot be a wave and a particle at the same time... and so on).

Ciao T

revboden · 24th December 2011, 09:20 PM

"There is no fence." TL

Where have I heard something like that before... oh well.

I have no problem going from micro to macro analysis. Does that make me a mystic, please say it does, I always wanted to be unknowable.

Wait, does this mean I have to honor Demeter and Persephone, cause if it does, I'm out.

CopperTop · 24th December 2011, 10:26 PM

Peter Walker of Quad claimed never to have listened to his amplifiers, merely to have checked that they worked properly by measuring them. Yet they sold by the hundreds of thousands in various topologies to enthusiastic customers, including audiophiles, musicians, recording studios, the BBC etc. Was it all just a fluke*? A triumph of marketing?

*No, not his multimeter.

tvrgeek · 24th December 2011, 10:43 PM

No expectations of magic with new caps. Wet electrolytic caps dry out. You can kill one in only a month in on the top rack of a high bay in a warehouse in Colorado in the summer. (My first career was doing failure analysis for a major computer firm) Their leakage goes up and capacitance goes down. New commercial grade low ESR caps have about half the ESR and three times the C in the same physical size. This is maintenance to return a 30 year old unit to like new. Only my scope and spectrum analyzer will prove if it is of any value. Looking at the data sheets, this problem has not gotten much better. Around ten years of normal use is about what should be expected out of one.

Hafler was quite famous for not over engineering his units, but hitting dead on exactly what made them work and no more. Whenever we think we are "improving" something, we should be asking ourselves why we think we know more than the person who designed it. Sometimes it is easy, cost. Sometimes technology. (u741 to a NE5534 to a LM4562). Most of the time, the designer knew better.

Wavebourn · 24th December 2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopperTop

Peter Walker of Quad claimed never to have listened to his amplifiers, merely to have checked that they worked properly by measuring them. Yet they sold by the hundreds of thousands in various topologies to enthusiastic customers, including audiophiles, musicians, recording studios, the BBC etc. Was it all just a fluke*? A triumph of marketing?

*No, not his multimeter.

I assume Peter had well calibrated perceptions. Like, I don't need to listen during hours to the thingy that I design in order to tell what is wrong. You know, when you have some experience it is called "Subconscious Competence", when looking at the topology draft you imagine how it sounds.

tvrgeek · 24th December 2011, 11:17 PM

CC, it may seem like jumping, but consider my original premise. Some, my wife for one, hear things subjectively but repeatably that I do not know how to measure. I hear some subjective things I can't answer to either. So, an engineer has a choice: Deny the evidence, or look at what we don't know. The jest of this thread is to open the discussion on what we have as evidence that we do not yet understand. I see some subjective evidence, and have noticed an anomaly in a measurement. Are the related? I don't know. That is why I am playing with it.

I offer a premise: If two amps sound different, at least one of them is wrong.

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24th December 2011, 04:39 PM	#72
john curl diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca	Tvgeek, please be careful with your assertions, UNLESS they have been cleared through your wife! Tweaks often work, but they may not make any sense to the 'sensible'. Also, I doubt that changing out the power caps will do much, unless you replace them with REALLY EXPENSIVE CAPS like the finest Japanese or especially BLACK GATE. As we age, we do become more forgiving, BUT the 20KHz treble peak in my WATT 1's still require a sock over the tweeter to tame it down, just like it did, 15 years ago.

24th December 2011, 07:47 PM	#73
counter culture diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2011	This stuff gets old really quick. The only purpose it serves that I can see is is to give a few people the opportunity to invite themselves into the elite class of the 'golden eared'. Paradoxically it seems that the older you all get and the worse your hearing the less capacity you have to resist the temptation to see yourselves as the true arbiters of quality. The really disappointing aspect is the propensity for those with genuine engineering capacity to jump from side to side of the objective/subjective fence, presumably in the hope of presenting a moving target and avoiding the ignominy of having a hit scored against you, which would undoubtedly tarnish your exaggerated sense of self-importance. What are you? Engineers or mystics? I'm both, BUT NOT IN THE SAME BREATH. If I was responsible for some of the stuff I've seen written here I'd gag on my own vomit.

24th December 2011, 08:26 PM	#74
Pano diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Carolina Blog Entries: 4	Thanks CC, now tell us what you really think. Nicely complimentary to the good folks here on the forum, your fellow members. And a Merry Christmas to you, too.

24th December 2011, 09:20 PM	#76
revboden diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2011	"There is no fence." TL Where have I heard something like that before... oh well. I have no problem going from micro to macro analysis. Does that make me a mystic, please say it does, I always wanted to be unknowable. Wait, does this mean I have to honor Demeter and Persephone, cause if it does, I'm out.

24th December 2011, 10:26 PM	#77
CopperTop diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: UK	Peter Walker of Quad claimed never to have listened to his amplifiers, merely to have checked that they worked properly by measuring them. Yet they sold by the hundreds of thousands in various topologies to enthusiastic customers, including audiophiles, musicians, recording studios, the BBC etc. Was it all just a fluke? A triumph of marketing? No, not his multimeter.

24th December 2011, 10:43 PM	#78
tvrgeek diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Md	No expectations of magic with new caps. Wet electrolytic caps dry out. You can kill one in only a month in on the top rack of a high bay in a warehouse in Colorado in the summer. (My first career was doing failure analysis for a major computer firm) Their leakage goes up and capacitance goes down. New commercial grade low ESR caps have about half the ESR and three times the C in the same physical size. This is maintenance to return a 30 year old unit to like new. Only my scope and spectrum analyzer will prove if it is of any value. Looking at the data sheets, this problem has not gotten much better. Around ten years of normal use is about what should be expected out of one. Hafler was quite famous for not over engineering his units, but hitting dead on exactly what made them work and no more. Whenever we think we are "improving" something, we should be asking ourselves why we think we know more than the person who designed it. Sometimes it is easy, cost. Sometimes technology. (u741 to a NE5534 to a LM4562). Most of the time, the designer knew better.

24th December 2011, 11:17 PM	#80
tvrgeek diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Md	CC, it may seem like jumping, but consider my original premise. Some, my wife for one, hear things subjectively but repeatably that I do not know how to measure. I hear some subjective things I can't answer to either. So, an engineer has a choice: Deny the evidence, or look at what we don't know. The jest of this thread is to open the discussion on what we have as evidence that we do not yet understand. I see some subjective evidence, and have noticed an anomaly in a measurement. Are the related? I don't know. That is why I am playing with it. I offer a premise: If two amps sound different, at least one of them is wrong.