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Old 18th December 2012, 10:27 AM   #7851
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by sofaspud View Post
To me, "great specs" (ie, measurements, high fidelity) is a defined characteristic.
"Good sound" (ie, sound quality, colloquial hi-fi) is not.
A fairly reasonable definition for "good sound" is that it's of a quality capable of fooling at least some of the people, some of the time, I would have thought ...

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Old 18th December 2012, 10:39 AM   #7852
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I might not disagree with that definition.
It might appear, though, that some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, is what is being sought.
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Old 18th December 2012, 10:43 AM   #7853
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I did these some years ago . The graphs are for my reference and not to any weighting curve etc . Note how the 7R ( a bit for wires added ) load of the Lyra Helikon is always dominant . The outcome is interesting . The Tyco foil resistors were supplied by a friend to fit . I listened and was very surprised . The foil resistors made the pick up sound as if the stylus was super clean . The phono stage had no other special parts apart from polystyrene capacitors . The carbon composition sounded better than the metal film , noticeably 1950's . I could imagine a mix of film and comp might work ( 68 K CC + 300K + ap 300K film ? ) . I did try reverse phase films as in radio amateurs book ( ty-rapped ) . I think it helped ? Better PU's like Helikon do not seem to require special loading . 22R to 47 K seems OK . As incredible as it might seem the inductance might be important for a phono stage . That seems crazy . Good advice I think is use 47 K until certain . Shure's like much more ( 68 K even 1 M , adjust EQ to suit ) . One PU specifies 845 R !
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:25 PM   #7854
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Yet, often enough, when one replaces standard carbon 5% resistors with 1% metal film in critical places (Input and NFB path, input stage), one is rewarded with better sound and more clarity, sometimes just barely audible, other times clearly audible, as the case may be.

Truly, the answer is not always in the light where the light shines.
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:20 AM   #7855
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Perspective .......

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Old 19th December 2012, 01:42 AM   #7856
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I completely agree great specs does not mean great sound. For about 7000 posts we have been wondering which specs may actually be important, and have pretty much agreed many are pretty useless, like DF.

But, how often do you get great sound with terrible specs? Not often. Kind of like one of my favorite lines: "You don't always get what you pay for, but if you don't pay for it, you won't get it"

Just a few more furniture projects to finish up and I will get back to the amp testing I had planned. I have been so stressed from work I can't focus on studying circuits. Making sawdust seems to help. Still, I want to HEAR the differences in various CCS designs, not believe SPICE. I have a suspicion we have been over-emphasizing stiffness for consistency. Just a suspicion.
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Old 19th December 2012, 05:22 AM   #7857
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Wanna buy some diffusors .......

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Old 19th December 2012, 06:38 AM   #7858
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Wayne, old buddy, I can't open any of the video links you supplied.
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Old 19th December 2012, 06:49 AM   #7859
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I am not sure just how much can one actually hear this or that CCS design, if you mean CCS as a part of a say differential circuit. In that case, a CCS is sort of an auxilliary ciruit, necessary for proper operation of the key, or primary ciruit.

If you meant the entire CCS stage of an amp, that's a different story. But even so, assuming no obvious mistakes were made, I think you'll find that their differences show up best when they are really stressed, which means it's going to be hard, even potentially deadly (because of the missus) to listen for it. And I suspect your eardrums won't be too compliant, either.

The problem there is that for a real test, you'd need one VAS stage, with which you could switch the following CCS stage. If not, you'd be hearing differences from various amps, i.e. back to square one.

And think of the problems involved. Just as an example, if you use a driver and output two stage, you might need say at least 10 mA of current drive. If on the other hand you use a triple stage, i.e. predriver -> driver -> output, you could get away with about 5 mA of drive simply because a triple stage has a much bigger current gain factor. But, a triple stage will also have a lower output impedance and might enable you to use a greater variety of output devices.

Oh man, you have your work cut out for you.
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Old 19th December 2012, 10:01 AM   #7860
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Specs do matter . However sometimes it is only in open loop or un-shunted we see a trend . A trend and not a pointing finger . Often trends become reliable . As shown previously shunted carbon composition looks almost the same as any other resistor . un-shunted slightly different as would be expected although not as drastic as some would imagine . The sound of a CC is decidedly pink . It is almost have your cake and eat it too if liking it . Did anyone notice on my graphs CC almost looks the best ? I did rerun the tests and found similar traits . Weird . By ear CC was no worse on hiss if shunted ( 7 R shunt load ) . By ear I would say more obvious than the scope either way if CC . Below are the un-shunted results . Again my data so forgive the choice of reference points . It is a RIAA preamp with gain of about 65 dB ( 1 kHz ) . You can see the EQ and FT of the circuit in the 47 K graphs . Note how reasonable a modern CC is ( Foil $15 , CC 30 cents , film 1 cent ) .
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