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Old 13th July 2012, 02:23 AM   #6701
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I only spoke to Tom once or twice over many decades. He was apparently also behind getting rid of me. He gave Mark the psychological ammo to disregard my input, up to that time.
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Old 13th July 2012, 02:29 AM   #6702
benb is offline benb  United States
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Originally Posted by tsiros View Post
The name sure rings a bell, so I'm guessing there's a store within driving distance (around Atlanta) where I could try one out, if I decided I Needed To Do So...

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And i know this is not the place, but has anyone got any experience with tweaking these things?
We do have The Perfect Subforum for such questions, along with guitar-amp tweakers:
Instruments and Amps - diyAudio
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Old 13th July 2012, 08:03 AM   #6703
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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I only spoke to Tom once or twice over many decades. He was apparently also behind getting rid of me. He gave Mark the psychological ammo to disregard my input, up to that time.
All that kind of thing sucks.

And amply explains why I have been self employed for the last 33 years, except for an 18 months stretch, during which the nature of the job mandated that I must be formally empolyed by the company. A classic "red to black" operation, a shaky company owned by a friend needed to be moved from the red back into the black, and it took some doing, but we did it.

My last act of efficiency reform there was to fire myself, as I had become no longer needed.

The toughest problem I had to wrangle with was just this sort of mentality John talked about, people wasting their and the company's time fighting it out about petty things and in the process slowing the company down.

Man oh man, was I happy to finish that job, or what!
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Old 13th July 2012, 09:51 AM   #6704
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QUOTE=dvv;3090146]While the idea may be intriguing, I think it's anything but practical.

I for one would never buy anything like that quite simply because I do not have a guitar, nor can I play one. And I think well over 90% of those buying audio gear play no instrument, whicle those who do play instruments also have their own sets of legitimate requirements.

It's like combining a road going car with a submarine. It has been done, it has been practically proved possible, but as far as I know, practically nobody bought into the idea. A Swiss company called Rinspeed specializes in such potpurris.[/QUOTE]

That's the point . I went to a gig the other day and saw a healthy interest in music . Identical to when I did it in the 1980's . Great never is easy .

Land Rover have carved out a market for such a device .

I did the maths of it once . My inspiration came from a a Spendor product . The Prelude . I think Spendor saw a way of doing a more commercial speaker . I will tell the story as I feel Derek Hugues needs some praise . The Prelude was a compromise at a ridiculously low price . The compromise turned out to be the most wonderful of their products . The box was not plywood ( vinyl chipboard if memory is correct ) . The bass unit BC3 . The bass end had 10 Hz less than Derek could have managed as he was unsure of the box . The tweeter was a 1 inch Audax soft dome ( perhaps the HD250 large magnet ) . I told Derek how much I loved it . He was flattered as it was his first design that his father hadn't supervised . The big deal to me is 90 db efficiency , Spendors struggled to get 84 db usually . Derek was especially proud of the crossover . The Audax was so right and yet difficult . I can not hear any obvious coloration in the Prelude . Other speakers with the Audax were not so good . Unlike the LS3/5a it starts to work when levels are getting realistic . A nice SE amp will drive them . Far better than LS3/5a and less coloured . People forget that too quiet is a major coloration . I would say the strong areas of LS3/5a are equaled by Prelude . The old Dynaco A 25 speaker had a similar appeal . Very European I would say . Like the best of AR meets KEF . Scandyna I beleive .

I then did some thinking . Nealy every high quality guitar speaker will be very linear at low wattage ( true hi fi where things are real size ) . Klipshe had bass units which seem to me to be begging to work with bass guitar . My ultimate conclusion is that the guitar set up is the best . It can be asked to be PA which is the mid point . It can be asked to be hi fi . One thing to say . I built a high impedance amplifier . It was weird and useless except with guitar . That suggests to me that if hi fi is the priority the change to guitar amp could take some unusual routes and be brilliant . Diff lock on a 4 x4 is hyper useless except when it is required ( about 4 times in the vehicles life for many ) . Sometimes that 4 times is life and death .

My last point . This thing has to say Buy Me . Buy yourself a guitar . Just playing the strings has a magic about it . I came to the strong conclusion that a good guitar amp has acoustic distortion at low level . Thus an electric guitar can mimic an acoustic . The thing to grasp is this happens at a level where one can not tell the amplifier is switched on . Like driving too fast we all do it , guitar amps are played loud . The Land Rover often sells on the fact it is old fashioned which includes comfort . When driven slowly it is what is missing in the alternatives . Hi Fi is the same . Big is very beautiful . Big has been banned by what 1960's British hi fi mags called the distaff member of the house . Harvey Rosenberg said Men you owe it to yourself to get those speakers out of the cellar and remove those antique chairs no one is allowed to sit on . Harve also said your wife loves music , she doesn't love hi fi . My speaker is a Trojan Horse . It get young lads reconnected with hi fi .
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Old 13th July 2012, 12:15 PM   #6705
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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On Audax - I agree completely, although the company is no more, Harman International put a lock on their door.

But they are quirky. You really have to know them inside out to get the best of them, but once you do get it right, few can match them on sheer neutrality. Not that this is any different from say transistors.

When my friend and I were cooking up my speakers, I asked him about this, stating that most loudspeakers using Audax drivers were as exiciting tonally as a wet blanket. He smiled and told me - yes, this is true much of the time, but that's only because those speakers were put together too much on paper and too little in real life.

I was, I admit it, a little sceptical nevertheless, even if I did know his company was the local representative and importer of Son Audax. However, since I participated in its creation from my own idea which I sort of sold to my friend right to the end, I was witness to each and every change made on them over a six month period and God knows how many sessions of critical auditioning. I heard them, with my own ears, move slowly from "typical" to "atypical" (as in better than average) to exceptionally neutral.

I am deeply convinced that it is this neutrality, this ability to make the loudspeaker box disappear and completely turn into a sound source invisible as such that makes them such great speakers. Everything else is just extra profit.

I would, by default, be suspicious of my own self, because hey, every daddy likes his kid best, but I have been told this in many ways by local speaker designers and manufacturers whom I respect and consider to be very competent people. Only one of them identified Audax drivers correctly, none of the others did, and quite a few asked which drivers were used, by whom? All were agreed that the degree of enutrality was admirable, and that's something coming from direct competitors, all of whom are unusually vain regarding their work.

So Nige, forget Son Audax, they are no more. A pity, but unfortunately, also the naked truth. I wish I could offer you a naked girl instead of that truth.

Last edited by dvv; 13th July 2012 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 13th July 2012, 12:34 PM   #6706
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Problem solving is about using brains and ears , the Spendor was a historic reference to that . I feel active is so much easier . I can see where a mix of active and passive might be more so . I don't mean the obvious . I mean one could even use a passive half of each filter . For example a bass choke .
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Old 14th July 2012, 12:39 AM   #6707
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
I am deeply convinced that it is this neutrality, this ability to make the loudspeaker box disappear and completely turn into a sound source invisible as such that makes them such great speakers. Everything else is just extra profit.
That is as good a "Zen" of audio as anything, except, for me, this can only occur with the system as a totality, always viewed as a single, integrated entity, irrespective of how it is physically contructed, or the components in it are connected ...

Frank
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Old 14th July 2012, 08:57 AM   #6708
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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That is as good a "Zen" of audio as anything, except, for me, this can only occur with the system as a totality, always viewed as a single, integrated entity, irrespective of how it is physically contructed, or the components in it are connected ...

Frank
What you refer to as "zen" was our goal. Furthermore, it was also our objective to make the loudspeaker as easy and as undemanding a load as possible, so that it would let as broad a specturm of amplifiers do what they do as well as possible. Nominal impedance is 8 Ohms, minimum is 6.5 Ohms, worst case phase shift is -25 degrees, efficiency is 92 dB/2.83V/1m, contimuous power handling 120 Wrms.

Normally, it is powered by my Karan Acoustics KA-i180 integrated amp,. delivering 180W/8 Ohms, or by a Marantz 170 DC power amp, delivering nominally 85 W/8 Ohms. In both cases, it works just fine.

And using locally made 15...20W/8 Ohms SET amps, we had all the volume we needed for very comfortable room listening.

All that was rather educational, at least for me. It showed that even humble devices, like say cheap Technics integrated amps, can deliver some reasonable sounds if not stressed at their outputs by some difficult to drive loudspeaker. Use a better pre/main amp, or integrated amp, and obviously, you will get a better output, but I for one was even very surprised at the results I got from unassuming gear.

It's a pity the company making it is no more, and worse, that's because of a motorcycle accident which left one of the two owners completely paralyzed in a wheelchair, able to move only his little finger of his left hand. Severed spine. A tragedy and a horror.
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Old 14th July 2012, 09:06 AM   #6709
dvv is online now dvv  Serbia
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I forgot ...

The rest of the system is an Aussie real time dac (8 parallel DAC working all together), no oversampling, no digital filters (so they say). The signal is picked up by a Yamaha CDX 993 CD player, tweaked by me just a wee bit. The preamp is a Luxman C-A3 or a Marantz 3250B (from 1978). The tuner is a reVox B760 digital tuner, or a Marantz 6000 tuner.

Incoming power filtering is my own Sextet model, which has 6 parallel filters, one for each output, crosstalk between outputs is better than -120 dB. Line voltage is 224 VAC, 50 Hz, +/- 4 V. Everything is set for 220 VAC. Local power company is in the process of adjusting to the European standard od 230 VAC.

Cabling is mostly by van den Hul, including the 352 Hybrid loudspeaker cables (2x256 strands, cross section 5.5 mm, but unfortunately, due to room architecture, in two 6 m runs to the speakers).
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Old 14th July 2012, 09:47 AM   #6710
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Good Morning DVV and all .

That's an excellent point you make . In the 1980's some speaker manufactures made an effort to make speakers into resistive loads . I didn't study it in depth so do not remember how successful they were in the actual resistivity of the load . KEF especailly . I was asking to other day why didn't KEF 107 succeed ? I had forgotten . First of all if had an equalizer called the KUBE which looked like one of Radio Shacks bargain products . Next it had 4 ohms loading . The customers dislike equalizers at the best of times . It is an amplifier choice they haven't made or like imposing a cheap interconnect the KUBE being a brake in the chain . A choice taken away from them ( Rega RB 250 ) . The 4 ohms doubly raised doubts as KEF and Quad were often paired . It was often implied that Quad could not drive 4 ohms . It was a marketing blunder on KEF's part . As KEF rightly pointed out NO mainstream amplifier minds 4 ohms resistive . 4 ohms reactive is a different kettle of fish . If you have a Quad 405 and it is mk 2 it is 4 ohms compatible ( even reactive ) . 405's used as monoblocs even better ( parallel bridge ) . They phase invert also which does make a difference .

KEF stand out especailly in 107 as having proved the concept to me at least if not the marketing . Other manufacturers seemed to have on the one hand made it work and on the other made a bland speaker . One thing I did find is that it made amplifiers more level in comparisons .

This is where my semi active idea comes from . I suspect that current drive speakers if pursued and money spent would revel some fundamental advantages of constant voltage source drive as is usual these days ( high damping factor , high current ) . What a lot of current drive people seem to ignore is a speaker driver is basically an inductor . To wish it into a restive load is difficult . My instinct is that if drive unis are not created specifically for active drive a semi active drive might be best . That is where some of the crossover is retained to help the amplifier . The irony is that a NAD 3020 will probably accept the load whatever it is within it's modest capabilities . I would give a bit of advice . Use a NAD 3020 , often it will tell you a very unpleasant truth . It isn't the best but it works fine .

Last edited by nigel pearson; 14th July 2012 at 09:50 AM.
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