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Old 19th June 2012, 09:42 AM   #6201
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This is worth reading .

Product Review -
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Old 19th June 2012, 10:24 AM   #6202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Take a look at them inside, and you'll see what I mean.
What i see is that the models are all pretty much the same.
For instance, the bridge rectifier used is a metal case block 5VB-20.
Or an odd looking plastic variety, 5B-2, which is mounted on it's side, with 2 holes on the corners for a screw.
Both are 200V, 6A bridge rectifiers.

Those may be sufficient for a single 2x12.000uF electrolytic capacitor that supplies both channels, but not exactly what i'd call oversized.
Increasing the powersupply capacitance in those amps better be combined with a bridge rectifier swap.

Output stage of the 170dc & 1152dc is a 2-pair B557/D427, TO3's that handle 80W and 8A each.
An output stage that has a max dissipation figure of 320W, for a +100W/8 amp, is undersized.
Again, doubling the capacitance of 6.000uF per rail better be combined with an exchange to a beefier output stage.

A €3500 SM11-S1 outbeats the '70s Marantz amps in every way, from the covered toroidal transformer to the much stronger output stage.
(a new SC11-S1 + SM11-S1 pre/power amp duo now does less than €4500 in these parts, ~5 years after introduction)

As for cost cutting :
a Quad ESL63 set cost 7000 Dutch guilders here in 1985, the equivalent of ~€3200.
27 years of inflation would have bumped up the price tag to €6500 minimum
Last list price of the successor ESL988 was €3500.

(i was born in the '50s too, Mr Veselinovic)
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Last edited by jacco vermeulen; 19th June 2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 19th June 2012, 11:00 AM   #6203
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
What i see is that the models are all pretty much the same.
For instance, the bridge rectifier used is a metal case block 5VB-20.
Or an odd looking plastic variety, 5B-2, which is mounted on it's side, with 2 holes on the corners for a screw.
Both are 200V, 6A bridge rectifiers.

Those may be sufficient for a single 2x12.000uF electrolytic capacitor that supplies both channels, but not exactly what i'd call oversized.
Increasing the powersupply capacitance in those amps better be combined with a bridge rectifier swap.

Output stage of the 170dc & 1152dc is a 2-pair B557/D427, TO3's that handle 80W and 8A each.
An output stage that has a max dissipation figure of 320W, for a +100W/8 amp, is undersized.
Again, doubling the capacitance of 6.000uF per rail better be combined with an exchange to a beefier output stage.

A €3500 SM11-S1 outbeats the '70s Marantz amps in every way, from the covered toroidal transformer to the much stronger output stage.
(a new SC11-S1 + SM11-S1 pre/power amp duo now does less than €4500 in these parts, ~5 years after introduction)

As for cost cutting :
a Quad ESL63 set cost 7000 Dutch guilders here in 1985, the equivalent of ~€3200.
27 years of inflation would have bumped up the price tag to €6500 minimum
Last list price of the successor ESL988 was €3500.

(i was born in the '50s too, Mr Veselinovic)
Jacco, all that is fine and good, but you have to realize that I live in a country where most people don't make € 4,500 per annum, the current average monthly salary being around € 330, or just under € 4,000 per annum.

So, what is perhaps an agreeable price to you is totally unthinkable to 90% of the local population, even assuming they eat nothing and pay no bills for a year.

I have not heard Marantz' latest products for about 5 years now, with the exception of model 7000 and 8000, their regular production. These have completely failed to fire me up in any way, typical industrial fare of today, might as well be whosever you want. Bland. You have to tune them to get any life out of them.

And, being involved in production myself, I am fully aware of how costs escalate as you start raising your expectations.

As for the sound of the vitage gear, it appears we have different schematics, you and I. I am not really into counting the parts bean by bean, but since mine are internally stamped for March 1978, I wouldn't be surprised if yours were later models, subject to cost cutting. Just about everybody does that, my first edition AR94 don't even look like the last models, and the drivers they used later on make it very clear that it was going bust time for AR. Tin junk which sounds like junk, but did cost less than mine.

Let's leave it that we agree not to agree.
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Old 19th June 2012, 11:33 AM   #6204
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In the early '70s, i had a 20W Superscope receiver, "by Marantz", could only gloat at real and fancy Marantz gear in the homes of family members and acquaintances.

Nowadays, a €6k integrated is closer to pocket change, what is agreeable to me now is still unthinkable for 99% of the folks here.
In 10 weeks time, i'm flying to the carribean for a 2-day concert, i have yet to give thought to what the total will amount to.
In the late '70s, a 1-day local concert meant saving up for months.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...uracao-nsj.jpg

It's all relative, good thing is to keep that in mind.
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Old 19th June 2012, 12:55 PM   #6205
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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@Jacco

If you've got it, flaunt it.

Lucky for you €6,000 is "closer to pocket change". That's about $7,500, and I'm not sure there are many here on the forum to whom that is peanuts money.

To me, that's about what it takes a year of my wife and me working our a***s off to be able to save, and we're the lucky 1% of the local population which can spare something to save up.
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Old 19th June 2012, 01:06 PM   #6206
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
In the early '70s, i had a 20W Superscope receiver, "by Marantz", could only gloat at real and fancy Marantz gear in the homes of family members and acquaintances.

Nowadays, a €6k integrated is closer to pocket change, what is agreeable to me now is still unthinkable for 99% of the folks here.
In 10 weeks time, i'm flying to the carribean for a 2-day concert, i have yet to give thought to what the total will amount to.
In the late '70s, a 1-day local concert meant saving up for months.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attac...uracao-nsj.jpg

It's all relative, good thing is to keep that in mind.

Sunfest ..? maybe not that is in 4-5 weeks .... in the 70's it would have been Sunfest for you

Last edited by a.wayne; 19th June 2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 19th June 2012, 01:57 PM   #6207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
1% of the local population which can spare something to save up.
Likely a similar number as those who could afford your Marantz numbers back when they were manufactured. Therefore it has no significant meaning.

A valid arguement would be that '70s Marantz gear is worth the care, and/or a renovation job, so folks in low income regions can have a decent audio set for a small investment.

The Marantz numbers i see are 51V rails, a little over 100W at 1kHz, but barely 85W over the audible range.
Rigid enough for easy budget grade loudspeakers, the load of my electrostats would turn it into scrap yard grade.

(Mr Wayne, in the late '70s, my youngest sister shacked with Erik Sunshine, a small-time coke & pills dealing junkie who used more than he sold. In those days, i had frequent Sunfests, on the house )
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Old 19th June 2012, 06:06 PM   #6208
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
Likely a similar number as those who could afford your Marantz numbers back when they were manufactured. Therefore it has no significant meaning.

A valid arguement would be that '70s Marantz gear is worth the care, and/or a renovation job, so folks in low income regions can have a decent audio set for a small investment.

The Marantz numbers i see are 51V rails, a little over 100W at 1kHz, but barely 85W over the audible range.
Rigid enough for easy budget grade loudspeakers, the load of my electrostats would turn it into scrap yard grade.

(Mr Wayne, in the late '70s, my youngest sister shacked with Erik Sunshine, a small-time coke & pills dealing junkie who used more than he sold. In those days, i had frequent Sunfests, on the house )
Not so. In 1978, the then alive Yugoslavia was incomparably better off, and while those units were not cheap, they could be bought by a lot more people than today - and in fact were.

BTW, my units no longer have the 15,000uF/56V caps as in the original state, but rather 22,000 uF/63V now. Merely 50% more.

Assuming the official exchange rate of DM 1.96:1€, our salaries then were around what would be like €450 today. And that was 30 years ago.

With them, the nominal 85 Watts per side, under the same conditions as described in the service manual, actually amounts to 95 WPC. And the power meters, inaccurate as they may be, seem nailed down to zero. I really have to turn it up for them to show signs of life, but by then, the sheer volume is well past the pleasant long term range.

My speakers are reasonably efficient, at 92 dB/2.83V/1m, and they are an extremely easy load to drive.
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Old 19th June 2012, 06:27 PM   #6209
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Belles Research , anyone heard of or know anything about them ...?
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Old 19th June 2012, 07:08 PM   #6210
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David Belles you mean ?
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