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Old 31st May 2012, 07:01 PM   #5921
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
Yes, if I recall a Motrola Gilbert cell mixer and many carbon comp resistors were involved to make a very bad multiplier.
I didn't lift the hood, but a composer/professor friend bought one and was entranced with the marketing spiel, buying it hook, line, and sinker, and going on about how much better it was than some mere noise reduction scheme described in a more orthodox fashion.
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Old 31st May 2012, 07:12 PM   #5922
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Originally Posted by bcarso View Post
I didn't lift the hood, but a composer/professor friend bought one and was entranced with the marketing spiel, buying it hook, line, and sinker, and going on about how much better it was than some mere noise reduction scheme described in a more orthodox fashion.
I was one who used to scoff at Carver's products, started in the 70's when his PL stuff would lose it's output stage at a Whim ...

This perception never changed when he came out with his power cube's , always felt the man gimmicky at best, until ...! A close friend , a die hard Carver fan if there ever was one, brought over one of his Carver amplifiers, model escapes me , but it had 2 round meters and damn it , sent my ML-9 packing ..

Then there was his Sunfire deal , that one sent a BAT VK500 packing, I can honestly say , the man maybe the most underrated designer HEEEVAR !!!

I will surely give these a listen when the opportunity arises ...
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Old 31st May 2012, 07:14 PM   #5923
SY is offline SY  United States
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Don't forget his loudspeaker concepts which were really new and inspired a lot of copycats.

Disclaimer: I use Sunfire amps on my subwoofers, one of the very few pieces of stock commercial equipment in my system.
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Old 31st May 2012, 07:16 PM   #5924
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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His Sunfire amplifiers have really good sonics and drive, anyone care to explain his down converter Deal ...?
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Old 31st May 2012, 07:18 PM   #5925
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Scott, I can't hear through double-blind, when conditions are matched up the way they are supposed to be, like: level, polarity, and frequency response, so I think that the NULL results (I can't tell the difference) show that the test is FLAWED. This is because my ability to discriminate between otherwise 'identical' designs, returns when I can KEEP TRACK of the different designs while the music changes. NOT the specific IDENTITY of the compared designs, but the consistency of knowing which design is being listened to in the test. I decided about 1/3 of a century ago, AFTER trying ABX testing, that there was something wrong, AND that it would not give me any meaningful feedback. Since then, I designed the JC-80, Ultramaster (30 ips mastering recorder), Vendetta Research, CTC Blowtorch, etc, etc. You can't intimidate me into considering double blind testing as necessary or EVEN useful.

Last edited by john curl; 31st May 2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 31st May 2012, 09:27 PM   #5926
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Many blind tests are logically flawed. The tests can only have value if the parameters are very narrow and also tests for opposites can be implemented. I.E. artifact present not present.

A good example of a flawed test is the typical one to determine hearing bandwidth. A sweep of a sine wave which showed failure to hear a 20Khz tone as proof that the typical limit is 20Khz has a logical flaw. It can also be proven repeatedly and transferrably that this is not the case with a simple test that anyone can do.
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Old 31st May 2012, 09:27 PM   #5927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Scott, I can't hear through double-blind, when conditions are matched up the way they are supposed to be, like: level, polarity, and frequency response, so I think that the NULL results (I can't tell the difference) show that the test is FLAWED.
Amazing reasoning, if even in relaxed casual long term (but DB) listening I can't tell the difference I should still believe that there has to be one? Sounds like religious faith to me.

I remain more interested in preference where the difference is obvious.
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Last edited by scott wurcer; 31st May 2012 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 31st May 2012, 09:38 PM   #5928
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spladski View Post
A sweep of a sine wave which showed failure to hear a 20Khz tone as proof that the typical limit is 20Khz has a logical flaw. It can also be proven repeatedly and transferrably that this is not the case with a simple test that anyone can do.
I think you're propping up a strawman. It's terrifically easy to create two wav files with whatever source material you like, one with a 20kHz filter (your example), one without (having only the 96kHz filter needed for 192k sample rate), then ABX them in your own system with foobar. If you can hear the difference reliably, great. I've used the foobar plugin to convince myself that I can hear all sorts of signal processing, though I'll admit that I absolutely could not distinguish between 24/96 and 16/44 versions of the same high res recording played at a normal level. But my ears are old, so...
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Old 31st May 2012, 09:42 PM   #5929
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Choose a signal with infinite bandwidth, then bandwidth limit it.
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Old 31st May 2012, 09:43 PM   #5930
SY is offline SY  United States
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Where do I get one of those infinite bandwidth mikes?
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