Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by SY

Coming back to measurements, am I the only one who badly misses the complex plane impedance plots that Audio used to run on speakers? Amazing amounts of information there which would be tough to spot on a conventional magnitude/phase of impedance versus frequency plot.

Wow ... Audio Magazine was the deal amazing how the Audio Industry has changed, sad really ....

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by dvv

... and B&W, Spendor, Wharfedale, Monitor Audio, ATC, Tannoy, etc in the speaker arena, where the Brits were a strong force. In my view, remembering a few models like B&W DM6, or Spendor BC3, rightly so.

Who do you want me to kill for a Spendor BC3 in good condition?

In electronics, I am not so hot on them, I find most British amps sound lazy and disinterested and uninteresting. As ever, there are exceptions - Boothroyd Stuart Meridian, Bob Stuart's Lecson design days, and Armstrong (now gone, most unfortunately).

But as ever, this is a very personal list, just my own taste. Like you, Wayne, I also preferred American made amplification and loudspeakers, Japanese here and there, and in loudspeakers nowhere with the notable exception of Yamaha's 1000 monitor (but then, I never listened much to Jap speakers, so I could have missed a few goodies).

The sandwich cone Leak 3 way was an early favorite , what a speaker ...

[dvv]

Originally Posted by nigel pearson

I never take offense when people have go at us Brits or worse names . We deserve most of it . It's when people stop talking about you it matters . Seriously , I loved the way the discussion went today . Kids playing with the things they love and showing some passion . I am 55 now and so surprised I have anything to offer in a young persons world . I am determined to make a difference in hi fi . Recently I stopped work due to illness . Not too serious and still do some work .

Come now, Nige, don't sell yourself short. You're still a young pup. Years ago, you had ideas, most of which were wild; now you have ideas which are far more mature, that's all.

Then, you just braibnstormed, today, you think in terms of manufacturing possibilities, who's got the tools for it, etc. Do you REALLY think most of us were, and are any different?

I used to complain about this or that, my usual rationale was - they are a factory, they can make anything if they only want to. When I started manufacturing, I really changed my mind, quite simply because hard practce taught me that it isn't quite as easy as that.

Sterling Sound . Bravo . Jerry Bloomfield if I get his name right at Falcon who continues with LS3/5A also along with Derek Hugues ( I think that's secret , what the hell ) .

D V V . I left the Serb's off . Hope you don't mind .

There are some cultural differences at work here. When I say "Brit", it's simply to cut my typing work short - should I write "United Kingdomer", because I haven't the faintest idea whether you, for example, are of English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish persuasion?

A "Yank" is simply an American, and it is not meant as an insult, but is simply easier to type. Although, truth be told, in that particualr case I can see how that may be taken the wrong way, if one happens to be from the Land of Dixie.

Ultimately, you can say "X-ie boy" with respect, or say "Mr X" and make it sound like the ultimate insult. It's not so much as what you say, but as how you say it. One can be very civil and completely insulting at the same time.

In 1942, a certain Lord Railing told Winston in the House of Lords: "Sir Winston, you are a dog!"

Winston, cool as a cucumber, replied: "Lord Railing, you know what dogs do to railings."

Very civil, very polished, but clear enough.

[dvv]

On the output impedance issue, Brad, think back to the mid-70ies and the first big Kensonic Accuphase amps. Remember, they had a damping factor switch, with which you could have a damping factor (off hand) as 60, 10 or 5, or some such.

Anyone who thinks it's all the same, should try that, and he will learn that it is definitely NOT all the same, and on BOTH sides, from the amp, and in the speaker.

Normally, I'd use the 60:1 switch, as it is the cleanest signal path, and normally, most speakers would react best at that setting. However, using the theory that by 10:1, the damping factor has done what it can with the speaker's Q factor, I quickly discovered that the sound tends to be warmer and more sort of rounded off with that setting. The lowest setting saw some unnatural warmth seep in, but also the bass tends to go muddy and diffuse.

One could argue now that HOW you got that damping factor is not at all the same thing, how speaker A might react differently to speaker B or C, which would all be true to at least some extent, but this might also appear as a factor to be reckoned with in case of the amplifiers themselves.

It seems to be a much more complex and controverisla issue than it might apeear to be at first glance.

[dvv]

"Jap" to me is simply an abbreviation of "Japanese".

"Nip" I would think of as insulting.

I may not like much of their production, but I respect the Japanese far too much to be intentionally insulting or belittleing to them.

[dvv]

Originally Posted by a.wayne

The sandwich cone Leak 3 way was an early favorite , what a speaker ...

Lord Sandwich - what a man!

[nigel pearson]

Originally Posted by dvv

Come now, Nige, don't sell yourself short. You're still a young pup. Years ago, you had ideas, most of which were wild; now you have ideas which are far more mature, that's all.

In 1942, a certain Lord Railing told Winston in the House of Lords: "Sir Winston, you are a dog!"

Winston, cool as a cucumber, replied: "Lord Railing, you know what dogs do to railings."

Very civil, very polished, but clear enough.

The worst Churchill was . Lady Astor " Winston you are horribly drunk " Winston " And you are Ugly madame , tomorrow I shall be sober " . Perhaps it is just a myth ?

Allegedly two soldiers were caught in an act of gross indecency which I suspect was punishable by many years in gaol ( jail ) then . It was a very cold night . When told Winston said " How cold was it last night ? ...... after being answered and a long pause he said " Makes you bloody proud to be British " . How can you loose with a man like that in control ?

I did a lot of reading in what is now Brooks University Oxford . Mostly Wireless World . Articles like using positive feedback to lower distortion ( yes ) . After 1955 everyone seemed to go a bit less intelligent . Asking someone who was there at that time he said . That's easy Nigel the intelligent ones went into computers . Perhaps H C Lin was the only intelligent one who stayed ? I always found Sony's cheaper amplifiers better than the expensive ones . When asking I was told they would be the products of young engineers who would go into video next . Their boss who never got the " real "promotion did the expensive stuff . It has a ring of truth about it . Analogue computers gave us op amps . Somehow the people who made them found a niche . A conversation earlier was op amps . That 's fine . However detecting the work of another is merely appreciation and not designing . If asking I am one of the unintelligent ones so I include myself in this criticism . I do naturally discredit many who this is unfair to , I apologies . Intelligent people being in hi fi is true devotion . DTN Williamson went into computer controlled robots , luckily we got Quad 11 and ESL 57 from his influence . Hawksford , who can explain him ? Self ( D ) I understand and mildly praise . I don't mildly praise many so hope that's clear ?

Mr Tiefenbrun I think rescued us . No matter what the spec says the customers vote with their feet . Make it as they want it and they will buy it . NAD proves that ( not quite my taste , I suffer it happily when asked to , excellent cheap pre-amp I find ) .

BTW . New cheap Cambridge CD player has selectable output filter ( it is for me as a gift to use from a friend , arriving soon ) . It says it is not about better , it is about what you prefer . YES . I like it . Mr Self works with them I am told . Well done . It will help me design amps .

Why did Linn fail ultimately ? Sorry Ivor it's called beleive your own BS . The problem is when you guide you have no one to lead you higher . I am a great " beleive my own BS " merchant so I should know .

[dvv]

Way to go, Nige.

Any piece of audio equipment will ultimately make it or not with me if I like it or not. Quite frankly, I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it, because I am the one who is to live with it.

Your idea may be whacky at first glance, but if I try it out and it works for me, I'll adopt it for good, and let others search for the scientific explanation. Whacky and all.

[nigel pearson]

Whacky got us to the Moon ( via a diversion in 1943 ) . I appreciate that you sensed no criticism of yourself in that , thank you ( nor anyone who writes here as you are brave enough to stand up and be counted ) . The dedication you have given to your designs almost exhausts me to look at it . That is dedication .

[dvv]

Originally Posted by nigel pearson

Whacky got us to the Moon ( via a diversion in 1943 ) . I appreciate that you sensed no criticism of yourself in that , thank you ( nor anyone who writes here as you are brave enough to stand up and be counted ) . The dedication you have given to your designs almost exhausts me to look at it . That is dedication .

Let me put it this way, Nige - I recognize the fact that I am pretty mad, but I'm not stupid.

Also, a little teasing and good natured poking here and there only serves to liven up the discussion. With a little care, even dissent can be expressed in a nice way, no need for strongarming anyone. We're supposed to be all adults here, even myself.

If you know the mentality of the Irish, then you know at least about 90% of the mentality of us Serbs. After all these years, even I am sometimes surprised at the similarities. I stand down for no man, but I'll gladly stand down for a good argument which makes sense to me.