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Old 12th May 2012, 09:10 PM   #5411
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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A good set of cans are good for voicing , very few speakers will pass this test, coloration abound...


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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
I was once told by a professional loudspeaker designer from UK, staying nameless as he still works in the LS company, that their design goal was to spend 10-12% of the FACTORY sales price on drivers. Top models were stretched to 15%.
5x1 is about right , cabinet cost Kills you , shipping kills you and frankly , real expensive drive units are a waste of money ( diminishing returns) then just when you have it lock , some kook writes the only way to go is with diamonds and Bam ...

Hi end prices .....


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Originally Posted by dvv View Post

Just one remark on the automoile engine analogy, John - my dad, a mechanical engineer who worked in development of engines for around 12 years just after WW2 used to say that NOTHING eats up the engine from the inside as high compression ratios after wild revving up to 7,000+ rpm. Combining the two was u asure fire way to eat up your engine quickly, unless you resorted to superior materials, in which case it became very costly.

The entire US muscle car era is based on 11.5:1 and greater compression ratios, but this was compensated by extremely large capacities, which allowed them to work at below 4.000 rpm. Kind of a petrol fuel diesel approach. At the time, Europeans preferred faster revving engines with much smaller compression ratios and always outsold their cars in the US as compared to US cars in Europe by something like 10,000:1, or some such.

Just a remark, if you like we can expand on it in the car thread.
This was because they never had the electronics we have today to alter timing and fuel based on load and we spend those big blocks to 9000 RPM ..

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Old 12th May 2012, 09:36 PM   #5412
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People often forget that the designers, themselves, have to make something, and the person who sells it, let's say, retail, has to make something, and then there are the company costs like the manufacturing building, storage, etc., telephone, building alarm service, electricity, etc. etc. This drives the cost of a lot of audio components up, and/or profits down.
This is where 'promotion' even selling a story, much like Mark Levenson often does, helps to get the extra sales that can make a company a success. I KNOW that just making the best product I can make and trying to sell it at a reasonable price does not 'cut it' and that is why I never returned to manufacturing products after I closed down Vendetta Research.
I KNOW that making a world class audio component can become outrageously expensive, just because we want it to be as 'perfect' as possible, both sonically and visually. We fight it every project.
Now many of you might think that all you need to do is a circuit sim to design it, and a little time to build a prototype, well that will get you a 'hoopty' but NOT a race car. '-)
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Old 12th May 2012, 09:49 PM   #5413
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Just off to bed . Some reading if anyone wants to . Was just checking out some notes , though it might be interesting although we seem to have covered it .

http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/sloa082/sloa082.pdf
http://www.analog.com/static/importe...als/MT-096.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slod006b/slod006b.pdf
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Old 12th May 2012, 10:14 PM   #5414
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
that is why I never returned to manufacturing products after I closed down Vendetta Research.

I need an x-over, this one any good ..?

Vendetta Research TCP-1 phase-coherent electronic crossover,


Might as well ...
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Old 12th May 2012, 10:35 PM   #5415
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Would you be alluding to a direct comparison with a pair of cans?
Yeah, that must be it. It's a strange comparison because cans are so limited. That in-head sound, the lack of space and feeling. But yeah, my speakers are better in most ways than my Sennheiser phones. They better be, considering their size, cost and effort! Very similar in tonal balance, more revealing of space. Not the hyper detail of good headphones, but they aren't scant millimeters from my ears, either. Certainly more life-like.

It's sort of a kumquat vs grapefruit comparison.
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Old 12th May 2012, 10:50 PM   #5416
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Yeah, that must be it. It's a strange comparison because cans are so limited. That in-head sound, the lack of space and feeling. But yeah, my speakers are better in most ways than my Sennheiser phones. They better be, considering their size, cost and effort! Very similar in tonal balance, more revealing of space. Not the hyper detail of good headphones, but they aren't scant millimeters from my ears, either. Certainly more life-like.

It's sort of a kumquat vs grapefruit comparison.
No it's not, cans make a good reference tool and I'm not talking about that in your head sound , check for tonal balance and information retrieval .
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Old 12th May 2012, 10:56 PM   #5417
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It is unfortunate that generalisations are made without any real supporting evidence. The standard +/- 3dB tolerance for what makes a fairly good speaker amounts to bad practice. What many people don't realise, some designers included, is that measurement methodologies are poor when it comes to speakers. In my experience +/- 0.3dB change in frequency balance is audible on music material. Not only that, +/- 0.3dB change in frequency balance between two frequencies 1/10th octave apart is also audible on music material. If this is true then Stereophile's measurements don't mean a whole lot, but people, myself included, like to read them.

The task is really to identify methods that do give rise correlation with what you hear, rather than take the position that measurements don't giive rise to correlation. My favoured way of lining up a set of studio speakers is to use an AKG C414 microphone. It does not have a ruler flat response but it does have a hyper cardioid setting which allows the measurement to be made at the point of interest. When correction is made for its frequency balance by calibration against a flat microphone, very good correlation results.

It is also necessary to understand that all frequencies are not made equal. This goes beyond phon curve measurements which indicate the frequencies that the ear finds most sensitive. Certain key frequencies outside the most sensitive range have significant bearing on overall voicing of a speaker. It amazes me how often this is ignored.

Horns can be demonstrated to have moving mass benefits compared to direct radiating cone speakers. For those of who cannot support a flat panel envorinment, they are a good option especially where controlled directivity is also a beneficial factor.
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Old 12th May 2012, 11:11 PM   #5418
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Do you add spices, nothing like a good scotch bonnet for flavor and bandwidth .....
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Old 13th May 2012, 12:56 AM   #5419
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Originally Posted by benb View Post
Oh, and I found one of "those" stamps (contains a certain four-letter word, though for various reasons it's not "too" easily read).
That's about it.
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Old 13th May 2012, 01:06 AM   #5420
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Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Do you add spices, nothing like a good scotch bonnet for flavor and bandwidth .....

These days folks play with ghost peppers just to force the question, "is it food if no one can get it down"?
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