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Old 1st May 2012, 12:07 PM   #4911
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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I hope you (dvv) were not implying that publication by IEEE (of which I am a member) is a guarantee of correctness. That is not how peer review works.

Last edited by DF96; 1st May 2012 at 12:07 PM. Reason: clarify
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:39 PM   #4912
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I think the 15 page rebuttal to Bob Cordell's criticisms that we made in 1980 should also be read also, for fairness and completeness.
Matti told me that he never had any trouble with the IEEE, (of which I am a Life Member), when submitting papers.
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:40 PM   #4913
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Have you been off the planet to miss the explanation from Bob Cordell as to why and how Otala was mistaken?
You may agree with him - I don't.
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:42 PM   #4914
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
I hope you (dvv) were not implying that publication by IEEE (of which I am a member) is a guarantee of correctness. That is not how peer review works.
Having a scientist for a wife goes a long way in demonstrating how the peer system works, over the last 30 years. Current status: Prof Milica Prostran-Veselinović, MD, PhD.

By the same token, while agreeing with JC's suggestion, the same applies to Mr Cordell as well.

Last edited by dvv; 1st May 2012 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:45 PM   #4915
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I think the 15 page rebuttal to Bob Cordell's criticisms that we made in 1980 should also be read also, for fairness and completeness.
Matti told me that he never had any trouble with the IEEE, (of which I am a Life Member), when submitting papers.
John, may I ask for a link, if you have it?

On basis of principle, I agree with you, if one is to be able to judge, then one must follow the whole trail, not just a part of it. This is the first I hear of your rebuttal, and I would very much like to read it for my own sake.

Last edited by dvv; 1st May 2012 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:54 PM   #4916
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Dvv, I don't know if there is a link, but SY, I think, put it up, here, a few years ago, when we found it in Walt Jung's basement. There were four authors: Otala, Jung, Leach, and me. It was not published directly, because it was so long, and we offered a single page that was published in 1980, in 'Audio', as an alternative. However, for completeness, you should look at the full version, since Otala is still getting 'criticized' for holding his position on this issue.
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Old 1st May 2012, 01:08 PM   #4917
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv
the same applies to Mr Cordell as well.
Yes, of course, appearing in print is no guarantee of accuracy for anyone. An IEEE paper is more likely to be correct than an article in an audio magazine because it is likely to have had more serious scrutiny by people who are more likely to know what they are talking about, but no guarantees.

There are areas in science and engineering where the truth is counter-intuitive, so people feel that 'it just has to be wrong'. This may be one of those areas.
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Old 1st May 2012, 01:33 PM   #4918
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Dvv, I don't know if there is a link, but SY, I think, put it up, here, a few years ago, when we found it in Walt Jung's basement. There were four authors: Otala, Jung, Leach, and me. It was not published directly, because it was so long, and we offered a single page that was published in 1980, in 'Audio', as an alternative. However, for completeness, you should look at the full version, since Otala is still getting 'criticized' for holding his position on this issue.
Thank you for the lead, John.

SY, do you perhaps rememebr where you posted it? It would be a big help.

Otala, Jung, Leach and Curl - sounds a bit like the audio world's version of the Earp brothers. High Noon At The Audio Saloon.

Where's James Bongiorno on that list to make it Once Only Ever In Your Town? Was he too busy making another one of his, as he calls them, audio pimp suits?

It's a funny thing, but people somehow seem very extreme over Otala's work. They either idolize it, or just plain hate it, no middle ground. He's either a genius, or a complete spin doctor.

I've always thought of him as a methodical, meticulous man, who saw a problem, sat down, thought it over and proposed some possible solutions to it, never (to the best of my knowledge) claiming that his were the only answers and/or solutions.

Perhaps because he seems to be so articulate, he puts it down like it was the natural thing to do, makes it all sound so easy. This always seems to irritate a lot of wooden scientists who never had a single original idea in their life and resent everyone who did.
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Old 1st May 2012, 01:42 PM   #4919
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Yes, of course, appearing in print is no guarantee of accuracy for anyone. An IEEE paper is more likely to be correct than an article in an audio magazine because it is likely to have had more serious scrutiny by people who are more likely to know what they are talking about, but no guarantees.
Now, there's an exercise in understatement, regarding IEEE publications. While there is no official guarantee, practice shows it can be fully trusted nevertheless, as long as one is aware of the fact that it is a forum, and that there will be conflicting views and opinions.

Quote:
There are areas in science and engineering where the truth is counter-intuitive, so people feel that 'it just has to be wrong'. This may be one of those areas.
Always possible, yes. In my case, quite the opposite - my gut assures me Otala was right in principle, even if not right in some details.

My gut is my best friend, it never let me down so far. Although it is sometimes silent when it should speak.
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Old 1st May 2012, 01:47 PM   #4920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
You may agree with him - I don't.
Its irrelevant whether or not you or I agree with Bob Cordell as he's just the messenger. The flaw in what you've stated persists regardless.
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