Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

[ThorstenL]

Dejan,

Originally Posted by dvv

I'm beginning to see a pattern here with Thorsten, a pattern I have already seen with some friends of mine previously.

Somehow, most vacuum tube lovers/designers/users eventually get to the point where they start advocating what the rest of us consider to be circus tent sound reinforcement. Ultra high effciency drivers, MUST be horn loaded (more effciciency), ditto for bass, etc.

You will find me generally having used a "above average" efficient systems all my life, from that little 5 Watt per channel Chipamp plus those big (thin) plywood boxes with these 8" Alnico Drivers pulled from old Tube TV's when I was 9 or 10...

Originally Posted by dvv

I think it must be their small wee-wee power output that makes them go for this kind of fidelity.

Maybe, maybe not. I only "got into tubes" in the mid 90's after hearing Kondo's stuff. Before I pretty much had considered tubes outdated and over and something only some crazy musicians would want.

Originally Posted by dvv

Us transistor folk, who do have power if we require it, are much more free to choose the loudspeakers we want simply because we are less limited in power delivery.

You may find that you have a lot less actual SPL available than a good high Efficiency/Tube based system. But here is the clincher. In the 1980's I used my 100dB/W/m Coral BX-1200 and my 98dB/W/m efficient EV based speakers with fairly big (50 -100W) Transistor Amp's and not tubes! I did have some studio tube Amp's as well, but only because they needed to be sused with speakers to get the correct EQ.

One for you to try. Move your system into a > 30m Room and get a second pair of your speakers. Stack them, tweeter to tweeter. Then listen with the top pair on and off, taking care to correct the 6dB increase in SPL from using two pairs by turning down the volume.

Ciao T

[Wavebourn]

trvgeek, why to pay $200 for a tweeter? I bought bunch of surplus drivers made for Dell notebooks by Foster and made nice tweeter arrays for my home cinema. 16 per side. Let's see if microphone capsules will perform better or not, especially when imperance of the array is 2K, and they are driven by OTL tube amp working in class A.

[tvrgeek]

Creative. I am a big fan of arrays for PA use, but the phase issues and comb effect have been difficult for me at home. Higher impedance is a big plus, I grant you that. Just one more set of experiments to play with. I'll watch the surplus flyers. What the heck.

Remember the old inch and a half Peerless paper cone that was in everything for years and years? I heard a panel made of 32 of them once. Surprisingly good. But even at 98 cents each, they looked like real money back then. The original Jordan modules were the big array drivers then but totally out of my price range. Four or six of then at a hundred a pop in 1980! Not at my pay scale.

[vacuphile]

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

Hi,



This is strictly personal opinion, and totally meaningless without defining " adequately loud" and "small room".

I have previously suggested 103dB per channel at listening position.

Are you suggesting that all small speakers match this in a "small room" (in my definition that would appx 25m^2 BTW)?

Adequate depends on the situation and the amount of ear damage one is willing to risk. For domestic use, average SPL of 90 dB, 100 dB peak is fairly loud and can cope with all but some audiophile recordings. Behind the desk top in my office, which is about 2,5x4x3,3, I can get this from a 3 inch two-way, with ample real bass. Which I define as the capability to hear a ground loop clearly.

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

Have you been at a HiFi Show in recent years?

Why so condecending? The real innovation is not in high end audio, but with the JBL's and Genelec's of this world.

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

More weaselword woffle. No data.

Lower distortion? Okay, how much distortion at 103dB/100Hz at the listening position is "Lower Distortion"? Is it 0.1%? 1%? 10%?

-50dB is ok above 100 Hz, rising with decreasing frequency. This can be done at rather high SPL's with some modern small drivers.

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

So you have a 5" equipped monitor that does "really no problem bass" (say it reaches AT LEAST down to the lowest Note on a Piano Grand without significant attenuation?

With a 6.25 inch woofer you can reach into the mid thirties. A speaker that does that really has no problem bass.

Let's go back to your original post where you said: When I see the "generic HiFi Speaker" with it's 1" Dome mounted protruding to a flat baffle and it's 5.25-6.25 Inch "Mid-Bass" Driver I see such a profusion of fundamental problems (or "faulty by design" features) that I can only conclude that the design is not intended to offer anything approaching any kind of fidelity or resemblance to what was mastered in the studio.

It is this blanket statement I reacted to. The only point I tend to agree with is that a dome protruding from a flat baffle is not the best solution, but even then it can be good. By the way, what was mastered in the studio would have most probably be done on a pair of two-way Genelec's with subwoofers, or another setup with similar characteristics.

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

This is a matter of opinion and what you are stating is a personal opinion, not fact. You may find that there are many who will not share your enthusiasm.

If you want to suggest that "A beats B" for establishment as a fact you would have to illustrate that "A" is superior in more areas of performance than "B" than it is inferior, ideally it would be superior in all of them.

From where I stand Dome tweeters are at a considerable disadvantage to all the other technologies I mentioned, when executed and implemented well, except on price, where Dome Tweeters remain the cheapest solution.


Ciao T

So how would you do the same when it comes to your preference for ribbons? Give me any evidence that ribbons are superior. It's all a matter of taste, and I don't want you to discredit a whole loudspeaker technology just because your taste is different.

vac

[a.wayne]

TVR are you trying to build stand monitors or floor standers ? Nothing wrong with domes , you can use more than one. If your budget allows use the heil , stay away from the BG's..

You can build very good performing units with the sea's drivers I had recommend 89db/1/m speakers , you just have to decide which way you want to go ..

@T,

In audio there are no absolutes , no checkered flag ...... The fact that some can listen to music being choked and squeezed out of a horn and rave says enuff...

[a.wayne]

@Vac,

I myself find ribbons superior to Domes, but not a total win, win . Small ribbons lack percussive energy compared to domes , well except the Heil which is pretty unique in what it does ...

Ribbons make sense when they are at least 75 mm in length , then superior to any dome tweeter , due to the much large radiating area and pattern, dynamics are related to amp power very difficult to push into compression...

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by tvrgeek

Creative. I am a big fan of arrays for PA use, but the phase issues and comb effect have been difficult for me at home.

Honestly, I don't hear that strawman phase and comb effect issues. However, if you make array of 12" drives an home you will hear some. But 8 of 4" full-rangers and 16 of 1" tweeters sound much better than any expensive point source speakers I heard. However, I have 12" woofers as well in concrete boxes, and horn subwoofer under the floor, but all that strawmen are illusory when arrays are competently designed and built. Extremely low distortions and wide area where stereo is heard, very naturally. Tweeter for center channel is made as a stick of 64 of 12 mm telephone speakers, mounted under screen so it's center is in on level of ears when sitting on the coach.

[MelB]

Originally Posted by dvv

I'm beginning to see a pattern here with Thorsten, a pattern I have already seen with some friends of mine previously.

Somehow, most vacuum tube lovers/designers/users eventually get to the point where they start advocating what the rest of us consider to be circus tent sound reinforcement. Ultra high effciency drivers, MUST be horn loaded (more effciciency), ditto for bass, etc.

I think it must be their small wee-wee power output that makes them go for this kind of fidelity. If they don't have it, they start to run out of steam, despite Thorsten's argument that tube gear in fact goes way above its specifications, with a bit o' distortion at 10% and above.

Us transistor folk, who do have power if we require it, are much more free to choose the loudspeakers we want simply because we are less limited in power delivery.

Dude, poor efficiency drivers, like anything less than 95dB/watt, sound like soggy sponges. No pop no feeling no matter what you are driving them with. They simply do not have the capacity to control the diaphragm. You simply need efficient drivers no matter what amp you are using. You know the kind that make your dog jump up and bark. Just my taste of course.

[AudioLapDance]

Wavebourn, we need some pics!

[FrankWW]

It seems that "WW" stands for "World War" on domes. What do you have against domes, Frank?

Lack of dynamic range so if the woofer is adequate, say, at least 10", then you have to pad down the woofer. It's better to be in the position of having to pad down the tweeter, I think.

Lack of controlled directivity which is needed if I'm going to operate a system in my small room.