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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:00 PM   #4651
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Thorsten, that very much depends on what you mean by "decent 2 way".

It's true that we move in different circles, which is bound to impact on our views and tastes. Of the professional gear, I moved mostly around recording studios, radio and TV stations, but not at all around live bands, mass events, etc. My personal SPL limit is too low for such ear and sometimes bone breaking events.

A speaker with a 15" bass driver I would have nowhere to physically put in, given that my room is only about 14 m2 (app. 153 ft2).

Of the 2 way speakers I have heard to date, those would be AR, JBL, KEF, B&W, etc, meaning mostly commercial makes, including more expensive models from people like ATC, Living Voice, PMC, etc. Some of them were DAMN expensive, too.

And I have still not heard one which I would take in preference to say AR11, let alone my current speakers, whose greatest virtue is that you do not get three drivers working in conjunction, but one single sound source - it is truly seamless. Which was one of the design goals.

And I'm quite happy with my bass extension of around 33 Hz, as a matter of fact, I think it's a damn good result for a small room like mine. No boom, no fizz. It could have been lower still, but the reflex port is tuned to 38 Hz by my choice because at that point, there is practically no response lift before the fall, it's as even as it was possible to obtain.

Unfortunately (relatively speaking), at the time I didn't know Aleksandar, who makes RAAL ribbons, so I use Son Audax's titanium tweeter, which is, incidentally, far better than it was pitched to be. If I was making it today, I'd take his ribbons. He owes me a couple of favors anyway.

So, if we take into account the actual living and operating conditions, perhaps it's to be expected that we should have such differing views.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:04 PM   #4652
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
They must be flying off the shelves ......

Its Audio , as much art as science, the science can be applied to justify one 's position and it's done all over the industry daily, hence there are very few concensus on anything ....
Why do we have to have a consensus? Why can't we simply agree not to agree? Just wondering ...

But I agree with you, there is a scientific explanation for just about anybody's view. So I trust my own ears only, no matter who says what.

Last edited by dvv; 22nd April 2012 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:59 PM   #4653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



These look like influenced by the Telefunken O85. Old Mono Systems with very wide dispersion. With Stereo transmissions they had to be replaced.

The L40 looked rather more pedestrian. If matched with an Amplifier (original EL84 push-Pull, later transistorised) that equalised the response (instead of the Passive EQ in the Box) it became the Z132 Monitor System...
I don't know about influences, BEAG used to make quite unique studio equipmet, and they were outside of "western patent zone", but that 2-way monitors sounded very real. May be because I heard nothing better then.
They housed 2 amps inside, both with EL34 outputs, and crossover was before power amps, utilizing if I remember right, something more than 2'nd order. The guy that tried to copy that amps found that output transformers used several different wire diameters, for better balance.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 09:10 PM   #4654
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Thorsten, that very much depends on what you mean by "decent 2 way".
I gave examples... :-P

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
A speaker with a 15" bass driver I would have nowhere to physically put in, given that my room is only about 14 m2 (app. 153 ft2).
I had 15" based speakers in a similar size bedroom in my east german Flat (a "standard Krushchovka"),

Actually, I had a pair of EV 15"+ 8HD + T35 Speakers in there (with Kölleda EL34 50W Tube Amp) , a pair of TH315 (12"East German coaxial) based Speakers with matching studio Amp (transistor) and one of my custom 100 liter Speakers with two KSP215 driven by a 25W Studio Transistor Amp. Plus a pair of K13 "Kugelboxes" (13cm Full Range driver in balls) driven by a commercial east german 25W Amp to represent "real world" gear.

I actually used a different little corner as "Bedroom" (very cozy, it barely had space for the bedding and a UV tube and a red lightbulb plus some erotic prints - girls thjough it was crazy) and had my "mastering" studio in my notional bedroom... :-D And I had 1-Way, 2-Way and 3-Way speakers there.

I must say that I mostly liked the 1-Way best, but not always.

I suspect these early "pro"days mostly ruined me for conventional HiFi. It just bores me to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
Of the 2 way speakers I have heard to date, those would be AR, JBL, KEF, B&W, etc, meaning mostly commercial makes, including more expensive models from people like ATC, Living Voice, PMC, etc. Some of them were DAMN expensive, too.
Price is not a reliable indicator of quality. I would notown the 2-Way models from ATC and PMC (actually, I would not own their 3-Way models either at that), living voice are okay for civilised music and a commercial compromise, unless you head the massive 15" based JBL 2-Way's I shall say it Bachman Turner Overdrive style - "You ain't hrad nothing yet". The rest - less said better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
And I'm quite happy with my bass extension of around 33 Hz, as a matter of fact, I think it's a damn good result for a small room like mine. No boom, no fizz. It could have been lower still, but the reflex port is tuned to 38 Hz by my choice because at that point, there is practically no response lift before the fall, it's as even as it was possible to obtain.
Well, as said, my 2-Way goes lower. The price paid was 3dB less efficiency than the speaker you use (which incidentally tells me that your drivers are not optimised for approaching the "Iron Law" Limit, the ones I selected are). And no-no boom. The lack of efficiency we make up for with low distortion and compression at high input powers, hence a 10"woofer with a 4" voicoil and a motor that would not look out of place on a 21" Pro Subwoofer..

I had occasion at HiFi Shows to put up a double stack (as shown above) against a lot of stuff, all the way to the big Avant Garde's with six bass horns and trios. I have never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
So, if we take into account the actual living and operating conditions, perhaps it's to be expected that we should have such differing views.
Perhaps. What I will say is simple.

Narrow baffles make mikey mouse imaging. Small drivers kill subjective dynamics. The 15" Midrange E130 I mentioned is one of the most dynamic midrange I know. It makes anything else sound dynamically challanged...

For example, make a "standmount" sealed box for E130 and tweeter and you probably struggle getting 150Hz flat (at 105dB/1W/1m) but your box will be a touch over 15" wide, as much higher to fit the HF driver, which is not really that large.

Then use any decent (even smaller diameter driver) sub to handle the stuff down below. And even a zero feedback 300B SE Amp will give you dynamics "zum abwinken" (to the wave-off).

Ciao T
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Old 22nd April 2012, 09:25 PM   #4655
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
They must be flying off the shelves ......
We sold out a fairly large run (for "expensive high end Speakers").

Due to some issues with the metal factory and the economic collapse (which altered AMR's direction considerably) we have not started a new round, despite considerable demand. Time will tell if we make another few 100 pairs, if we can solve the supply issues without pushing prices to "silly".

Ciao T
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Old 22nd April 2012, 09:26 PM   #4656
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
We differ here T , the tannoy's wouldn't get floor space, too many issues , too wide a baffle for its operating range , 15 inch woofer, remember what's behind that big woofer , sound travels both ways thru that woofer ...
As it so happens, I used to own Tannoy Corner Yorks, correctly build and damped.

Before we get into technical details, I would note that these Tannoys where heard by many "cognescenti" (including reviewers, manufacturers, famous audiophiles, mastering engineers, you name them). I never once heard anyone criticise my system for sounding "boxy" or anything like it.

Another comment this setup usually drew was on the ridiculous wide and deep sound stage it created. I would add that this system was comparably low in distortion across the board and 97dB/2.83V/1m with 16 Ohm Impedance and 30Hz-16KHz reasonably flat in room, placed in corners.

Now to the technical issues.

In the 80's I had a favourite "Vocal PA" Box, which delivered incredibly well for the cost/complexity. It used a single 15" JBL E130 and three Motorola "Lemon Squeezer" Piezo Tweeters in a distinctly german "hornkehle" (best translated as hornreflex) box with 24" square front and 12"deep.

The E130 carried the whole vocal range up to around 5KHz and did so extremely cleanly and without obvious problems. It had amazing projection in the middle distances and the whole system was 105dB/W/m above around 200Hz. Understand, that was a 15" "Midrange" Driver.

We tended to combine these with E140 or K140 in simple vented boxes as "bass" and managed to fill venues with as many as 500 patrons with nothing more than these and two 200WPC Stereo Amp's...

Of course, this was not "HiFi', but TBH, if you gave me a set of two pair of K140, one pair of E130 and a pair of the JBL Baby Buttcheek Horns (2402 IIRC) and told me I had to live with these for the rest of my life, I'd build the bass into a pair of Shearers integrated into the listening room and put the rest into a small (for 15") Monitor standmount and I would be very happy.

Now on to "wide baffles". It may surprise, but most "serious" studio monitors are designed for soffit mounting (that is in-wall or "infinite baffle"), for good reasons, because acoustic problems are created, not solved by narrow baffles. There is no such thing as too wide a baffle, only too narrow ones.

In fact, I have to yet hear a narrow baffle speaker that does not make a Baritone sound like a counter-tenor...

So it seems we live in worlds where different laws apply, or you simply have developed a taste for the usual hifi stuff (to which you are welcome) which I disdain and distaste, as it sounds extremely coloured and artificial to me.

De gustibus non disputandum est.

One man's meatloaf is anothers poison.

Hence we best agree to disagree.

Ciao T

PS, here is what one listener had to say about my Tannoy Setup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adnan Arduman
We listened to a variety of CD's and LP's, including my own evaluation CD's that are listed in the London 2001 Show review section.

I was amazed to hear how loud Thorsten's system can play without any hint of compression or distortion or fatigue. It is breathing so effortlessly even during the most dynamic and challenging passages. The bass control was excellent. The sound was detailed and natural. Consequently the system excelled particularly on orchestral music. I now understand why people go mad over these vintage Tannoy drivers. The only small problem was room related: the column between the two speakers (or should I say in the center of the stage) was slightly disturbing the imaging of the soundstage (though Thorsten does not agree with me on this point).

Last edited by ThorstenL; 22nd April 2012 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 10:26 PM   #4657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
Dr Geddes seems to think 15" woofer in a 2-way can be OK, of course he also thinks there are useful meaurements...
You are right and so is Thorsten on the Tannoy's. Have a pair of 15 inch K3838's. They are really very good, and for the same reason Dr Geddes I presume thinks that a 15" inch can be all right. It all has to do with the dispersion pattern of the drivers. Frequency response of the individual drivers is not the only relevant parameter when to decide between a 2 and a 3-way; you also want to prevent wild shifts in dispersion patterns between drivers in their crossover region(s). Tannoy and Dr Geddes use the same solution of a directivity guide or horn on the mid/high. The only difference is that the cone of the Tannoy's functions as a horn, and Dr Geddes places the horn above the woofer. Both solutions have pro's and con's, but the principle is the same, and it works if you want to have a 2-way with a large woofer.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 10:56 PM   #4658
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



We sold out a fairly large run (for "expensive high end Speakers").

Due to some issues with the metal factory and the economic collapse (which altered AMR's direction considerably) we have not started a new round, despite considerable demand. Time will tell if we make another few 100 pairs, if we can solve the supply issues without pushing prices to "silly".

Ciao T
Glad to hear , but my comment was for another .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



As it so happens, I used to own Tannoy Corner Yorks, correctly build and damped.

Before we get into technical details, I would note that these Tannoys where heard by many "cognescenti" (including reviewers, manufacturers, famous audiophiles, mastering engineers, you name them). I never once heard anyone criticise my system for sounding "boxy" or anything like it.

Another comment this setup usually drew was on the ridiculous wide and deep sound stage it created. I would add that this system was comparably low in distortion across the board and 97dB/2.83V/1m with 16 Ohm Impedance and 30Hz-16KHz reasonably flat in room, placed in corners.

Now to the technical issues.

In the 80's I had a favourite "Vocal PA" Box, which delivered incredibly well for the cost/complexity. It used a single 15" JBL E130 and three Motorola "Lemon Squeezer" Piezo Tweeters in a distinctly german "hornkehle" (best translated as hornreflex) box with 24" square front and 12"deep.

The E130 carried the whole vocal range up to around 5KHz and did so extremely cleanly and without obvious problems. It had amazing projection in the middle distances and the whole system was 105dB/W/m above around 200Hz. Understand, that was a 15" "Midrange" Driver.

We tended to combine these with E140 or K140 in simple vented boxes as "bass" and managed to fill venues with as many as 500 patrons with nothing more than these and two 200WPC Stereo Amp's...

Of course, this was not "HiFi', but TBH, if you gave me a set of two pair of K140, one pair of E130 and a pair of the JBL Baby Buttcheek Horns (2402 IIRC) and told me I had to live with these for the rest of my life, I'd build the bass into a pair of Shearers integrated into the listening room and put the rest into a small (for 15") Monitor standmount and I would be very happy.

Now on to "wide baffles". It may surprise, but most "serious" studio monitors are designed for soffit mounting (that is in-wall or "infinite baffle"), for good reasons, because acoustic problems are created, not solved by narrow baffles. There is no such thing as too wide a baffle, only too narrow ones.

In fact, I have to yet hear a narrow baffle speaker that does not make a Baritone sound like a counter-tenor...

So it seems we live in worlds where different laws apply, or you simply have developed a taste for the usual hifi stuff (to which you are welcome) which I disdain and distaste, as it sounds extremely coloured and artificial to me.
P
De gustibus non disputandum est.

One man's meatloaf is anothers poison.

Hence we best agree to disagree.

Ciao T

PS, here is what one listener had to say about my Tannoy Setup:
I will just say , there is too narrow and there is too wide , those tannoy's are too wide IMO and will not leave the room as just right ...

There are those who like that sound board effect, nothing wrong , just not for me and don't get me going on soffet mounted studio monitors ...
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Old 22nd April 2012, 11:05 PM   #4659
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
You are right and so is Thorsten on the Tannoy's. Have a pair of 15 inch K3838's. They are really very good, and for the same reason Dr Geddes I presume thinks that a 15" inch can be all right. It all has to do with the dispersion pattern of the drivers. Frequency response of the individual drivers is not the only relevant parameter when to decide between a 2 and a 3-way; you also want to prevent wild shifts in dispersion patterns between drivers in their crossover region(s). Tannoy and Dr Geddes use the same solution of a directivity guide or horn on the mid/high. The only difference is that the cone of the Tannoy's functions as a horn, and Dr Geddes places the horn above the woofer. Both solutions have pro's and con's, but the principle is the same, and it works if you want to have a 2-way with a large woofer.
We have different criteria, I'm sensitive to all that harmonic noise emitting from any 15 inch woofer operated above 250hz , worst with forward firing ports , there is nothing correct about it , throw in high order x-overs and it's , thanks for the wine and cheese , bye ....
Now if I'm doing an outdoor garden party and needed to cover a large area and needed 90 plus db then I'm with you ....

Last edited by a.wayne; 22nd April 2012 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 08:04 AM   #4660
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Well Thorsten, you may have had 15" drivered boxes in your room at that time, but did you also have to sleep and work in that same room? Because my room is my bedroom, my work room and my day-to-day living space.

Which means that it has to have a lot of contents, even for occasional use. Space is very much at a premium.

It's come to the point when my left speaker stands on top of another pair of speakers instead of a stand.

As for compression, if I have any (and reason tells me I must have some at least), it's well below any level I would find offensive. A good bass, such as the one on Blue Man group first CD, piece No.8, literally shakes up the room. True, there are 2*180W moving the membranes, but all the same.

I stand by my view, my only limitation being that I hold it true for regular speakers for regular people, not cheap but not silly expensive (although even this is up for dispute, what's expensive for whom), for normal, everyday use. Three way wins.

So, since neither one of us is going to budge over this, we'd best call it a day. We agree not to agree.
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