Sound Quality Vs. Measurements - Page 416 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 31st March 2012, 02:10 PM   #4151
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Really good amplifiers sound good on anything , they breathe life and music into any load , any speaker, they don't need special matching , special cables or special electricity.

Pretenders do ......
Alas, such Amp's are at the very best I have heard mere pretenders to good sound, next to a good set-up using lowish powered tube gear and high efficiency speakers. The worst sound either like a wet blanket or like haven wood splinters driven under your finger nails.

In part the problem is that about the only way to breath life into most low efficiency speakers is with a stick of Mr. Nobel's invention. They add so much compression that enough power to overcome that would melt their voice-coils and have distortions that would make the Wavac 833A look "low distortion".

So the very concept of an amplifier that can work well with any and all speakers is a pretence, a pose, devoid of reality or truthfulness.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 02:25 PM   #4152
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post

4 Ohm output power : 2x 400W
8 Ohm output power : 2x 200W
Load impedance : 4...16 Ohm

...

Not very load tolerant or is it ........
How/why would you conclude it was not very load tolerant?

It uses five pairs of 12A Toshiba vertical mosfets per channel, with hence around 120A single shot peak current ability.

I would expect this Amp to produce a of of power into 2 Ohm. The manufacturer simply has not provided such a rating.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 02:42 PM   #4153
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
As for your above question, try Marantz 170 DC or 300 DC power amps, nominally 85 and 150 WPC. They are straight DC designs, but with no servo - that's a trick not many of the new kids can match.
My Gainclone is 40W + 40W and it is a straight DC design. Incidentally, the PSU is a big torroidal transformer and two pairs of 3,300uF/50V Elna Silmic II caps in CRC.

It is a "straightline integrated", british style, input selection (relay), 50K Alps Blue Volume Control, direct to the output Amp, LM3875 with more Elna Silmic II, and baked/burned in/selected/mateched AB Carbon composition resistors.

I keep this one around as "reality-check" any amp that is not at least the equal of this humble little Amp in all areas is basically junk. The one thing it does not is unlimited power, drive super low impedances or stunt-bass.

But everything else it does on a very high level. The number of amplifiers that did a lot worse than this little "reality check" is surprisingly large.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 02:53 PM   #4154
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
I know I have been very disappointed in every single Sony product I have ever owned. The only saving grace it they all failed soon enough that I could replace them.
I have owned over the time a lot of Sony gear, from the TC-229 Cassette Deck, PCM F1 and APM-6 Monitors to more recently several Sony Trinitron CRT TV's (each sold off and upgraded to a bigger one, starting at 32") and a Sony CRT Rear Projection Set (now with a friend and still going strong at eight years after I bought it)

The 1977 Tape deck was still working and never had a a single service (except occasional hear/pinchroller cleaning) since I got it 2nd hand in the very early 90's, with all seals still unbroken when I finally threw it out fully working in 2006.

In fact, I never had a Sony product that broke down on me or failed to deliver exceptional performance (of course, I know how to pick them). So it seems either you have a talent for picking the lemons, or your Sony and my Sony are different companies bearing the same name...

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:21 PM   #4155
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Md
I have not had a Sony TV and I give them credit for high reputation there, except they made the 12" monitors for Apple, and they were total POS. I repaired hundreds of them. Bad power supplies. Every single audio product, most ES, failed. 3 out of 4 NAD's, 2 for 2 HK. (My Elite 300 does not really count as it was not the "modern HK") No failures of Denon, Pioneer, Hafler, Luxman, Marantz, Rotel, Kenwood, Sanyo, Hitachi, Teac, Behringer, DBX, MXR, Heath, Eico, Allide, Dynaco, KLH, or Toshiba. One used Akai amp failed, and I have a Yamaha I was given because of a worn-out 6 gang motorized volume control. I had a CM Labs amp that was unstable the factory gave up on. I had one Parasound and one Cambridge used damaged in shipment, so that does not count. The HCA 1200 Parasound I did get was dropped so hard it folded the front panel flat to the side, but it works fine. I had an e-mu fail.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:29 PM   #4156
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Md
Thor,
So, you would consider a well constructed Gainclone to be a baseline "90%" amp? I have only heard the chip in poorly built DIY, where it sounds like a big-box AVR. May have to build one one of these days.

It is very ture, thar are a lot of lessor amps for more money.

Your a tub fan, what is out there in the 20W range that is affordable that would be a good test with modern bookshelf speakers? The only tube amps I had failed the wife test totally, but one was a dirt cheap Chinese chassis ( Mengus) I am just playing with, the other the HK that is original, as in original caps. 12W is not quite enough for 87dB monitors in a large room. An old MV-50, VTL? I was going to try and convince Jolida to loan me one, but no luck. I work a couple miles from them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:38 PM   #4157
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
KSTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Central Berlin, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
My Gainclone is 40W + 40W and it is a straight DC design. Incidentally, the PSU is a big torroidal transformer and two pairs of 3,300uF/50V Elna Silmic II caps in CRC.
Hi,
Try referencing everthing to the neg rail instead of GND, that is let any variation on the neg rail only be a linear (not half-wave rectified) copy of the load current, and with literally zero supply ripple. It's just a different hook-up of passives, R's & C's only, no regulators etc needed, nor any topology change for the choosen feedback or biasing etc.

I found this improves the LM chipamps a great deal, if you look at the PSRR and CMRR plots you'll instantly see why...

Last edited by KSTR; 31st March 2012 at 03:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:42 PM   #4158
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



How/why would you conclude it was not very load tolerant?

It uses five pairs of 12A Toshiba vertical mosfets per channel, with hence around 120A single shot peak current ability.

I would expect this Amp to produce a of of power into 2 Ohm. The manufacturer simply has not provided such a rating.

Ciao T
Agree. , it may or may not and yes there are amplifiers out there which sound good on any type of speaker...

Do you know anything about this particular Sony amplifier, topology ?
Also I'm discussing absolutes here , no place for an chip amplifier...

@Tvr,

Sony stuff prior to 95 , we're solid devices , I do believe their later stuff may have issues , I have had problems myself (VHS, DVr )
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:44 PM   #4159
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Thor,
So, you would consider a well constructed Gainclone to be a baseline "90%" amp? I have only heard the chip in poorly built DIY, where it sounds like a big-box AVR. May have to build one one of these days.

It is very ture, thar are a lot of lessor amps for more money.

Your a tub fan, what is out there in the 20W range that is affordable that would be a good test with modern bookshelf speakers? The only tube amps I had failed the wife test totally, but one was a dirt cheap Chinese chassis ( Mengus) I am just playing with, the other the HK that is original, as in original caps. 12W is not quite enough for 87dB monitors in a large room. An old MV-50, VTL? I was going to try and convince Jolida to loan me one, but no luck. I work a couple miles from them.

Stay away from cheap tube amplifiers , if you buy , the jolida's are at least reliable ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 03:49 PM   #4160
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
So, you would consider a well constructed Gainclone to be a baseline "90%" amp? I have only heard the chip in poorly built DIY, where it sounds like a big-box AVR. May have to build one one of these days.
The original Gaincard and the "Gainclones" are no muscle Amp's.

Given that I tend to mostly use lowish powered tube gear this represents no problem for me, as my speakers generally benefit more from the quality rather the the quantity of power.

With this one limitation I give them 70% with 100% being for example a Kondo Baransu with real NOS WE 300B's or maybe a Reimyo 300B Amp or similar "extreme exotica".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Your a tub fan, what is out there in the 20W range that is affordable that would be a good test with modern bookshelf speakers? The only tube amps I had failed the wife test totally, but one was a dirt cheap Chinese chassis ( Mengus) I am just playing with, the other the HK that is original, as in original caps. 12W is not quite enough for 87dB monitors in a large room. An old MV-50, VTL? I was going to try and convince Jolida to loan me one, but no luck. I work a couple miles from them.
For the kind of speaker you describe, I think you need at least 70 - 150 Watts. Currently I'm running a 40W (ish) EL34 Push Pull Amp with 89...90dB/2.83V Speakers (3-Way floor standers) in around 35m^2. I find myself occasionally wishing for 3 to 6dB more power (80 - 160W).

A good one to try would be the CAT JL2.

I had occasion servicing one after bad tubes took out cathode resistors and transport damage tore loose the mains transformer from the elastic mountings (and to make a few simple but crucial improvement). Is a jolly decent Amp that is. I'd probably not mind one meself.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality Control differences = variations in sound quality? KT Class D 3 4th June 2014 12:02 AM
Sound Card for Measurements Marik Solid State 2 2nd January 2012 08:59 PM
Sound Card Recommendations (For Audio Measurements) dchisholm Equipment & Tools 5 16th July 2011 09:40 AM
How to protect sound card during amp measurements? okapi Everything Else 13 2nd September 2008 03:06 PM
Sound cards - test and measurements jackinnj Everything Else 2 5th July 2003 03:02 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:04 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2