Sound Quality Vs. Measurements - Page 411 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 29th March 2012, 08:11 AM   #4101
diyAudio Member
 
vacuphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Not where whatever I am looking for is at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
John,



The electrolyte itself is another issue. Electrolytic Capacitors operate more like a battery, with conversions between domains (electrons - ions), which are absent in Film Capacitors and even in these horrible low grade ceramics.

Ciao T
Only when they are broken and in the process of self-healing, there would be some conversion going on.

Otherwise I agree on the Elna's. A while ago I salvaged a lot of them from a Sony SADC, amongst which 2 3300 uF 'For Audio', and in a supply I am working on, they really perform very well.

vac
__________________
Everything is somewhere. Where the @!#$ is it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 09:22 AM   #4102
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
Only when they are broken and in the process of self-healing, there would be some conversion going on.
I am not really a specialist on this and what I learned is well over two decades ago and before numerous prasniks (Parties) in Moscow with too much Vodca burned away more neurons than the human brain has (or the effects of heavy drinking on the brain have been exaggerated), with little opportunity to put it to use since.

However it was my understanding then that charge transfer through the electrolyte takes places as ion transfer, not electron transfer. Now again, I am not a practising chemist or physicist, but what I remember from when I learned all that stuff, Ions and electrons are very different in nature.

Of course, in the end the charge is transferred from one plate of the capacitor to the other, however, again, I seem to remember that it made a difference which way it was done.

If I am in grievous error on this account or the state of common knowledge on the subject has changed in the interim, I'll appreciate the correction.

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 10:17 AM   #4103
DF96 is offline DF96  England
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL
However it was my understanding then that charge transfer through the electrolyte takes places as ion transfer, not electron transfer.
That is what I understand. Any free electrons in the electrolyte would quickly get grabbed by H+ ions? This would be the case whether or not electrolysis was going on, although with a DC bias this would usually be happening anyway.

Is there an electrochemist in the house?
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 11:02 AM   #4104
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Got ’em.

We tried them in November 2009, two and a half years ago. My list is incomplete, but the main players are all here.

Let me repat – we were NOT concerned with any other type of electrolytic, but for use as filtering/decoupling of power supplies only. No attempt was made to experiemnt with any in-circuit decoupling capacitors. Hence only larger values were of interest. No attempt to measure anything was made, they were properly soldered into the power supply circuit after what we see as proper forming. My notes show that all of this took us almost two weeks to complete to our satisfaction.

Our interest was limited to 100, 220 and 470 uF on one, and 4,700, 10,000 and 22,000 uF on the other hand.

ELNA (ref. ELNA 2009/2010 catalog)
General purpose 10,000 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 88
SILMIC 100 and 200 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 104
LAO (Tonerex) cat. Pg. 112, 4,700 uF/63V, both 30*50 mm and 35*40 mm

Nichicon
KS series, 10,000uF/63V, both 30*50 and 35*40
KG series, 10,000 uF/63V, 35*50 mm
GOLD TUNE (aka Super Through)

Fisher & Tausche
10,000 uF/63V 50*80 (not snap-in, available with or without lug)
Long Life type SI4P(H), 10,000 uF/63V
100, 22ou and 470 uF same series, 63V

BC Components
22,000 uF/63V, 85 deg. C, no special markings, came in at the last moment, no data, purchased in Germany

Roe (Roederstein/Vishay)
Standard fare, purchased in Buerklin, Munich, no special markings, 100, 220 and 470 uF/63V

Siemens
Standard fare, no special series, purchased in Munich, Germany. Middle of the road pricing. 4,700 and 10,000 uF/63 values only.

Jamicon
Assortment of 100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, all 63V, all nominally low ESR, 105 deg. C, dirt cheap, local sources.
Assumed to be of Chinese manufacture, but this is unconfirmed.

A/V (Italy)
100, 220, 470, 4,700 and 10,000 uF, standard offer, no special markings, low price.

S U M M A R Y
Three pages of notes boil down to the following:

Smaller values (100, 220 and 470 uF, all 63V)

We could not hear any significant differences between any of the samples. A light advantage to Elna and Roe.

Larger values

Elna was very clean and clear, but lacked deep bass impetus. Nichicon about the same, but choosing between the two, Elna would be chosen.

Italian A/V is literally as clear as mud, slow and murky. To be avoided.

Jamicon is a big surprise – it didn’t fail as expected and assumed, but returned a decent performance. It’s not up to the best, but it’s much better than expected, and it’s very cheap.

Nichicon did nothing to prove any particular extra value, except for the brand name. Not up to Elna.

Roe(derstein) worked as advertised and held its ground against all comers. Their 470 uF item should be preferred.

Siemens did fine, giving the bass impetus known to be in the program material about on a par with F&T and better than all others. Bass appears to be subjectively deeper.

F&T was level with Siemens, continuing its tradition of good products at a fair price. Snap in versions, together with Siemens, are definitely preferred. Standalone version, significantly larger (50*80 mm) and significantly more expensive, offer still better performance, but at a price.

BC Components was a small surprise, because it did just as well, and perhaps a bit better, than all others, for what is still a reasonable price.

The BIG surprise was Panasonic, samples came in late, but fortunately not too late. Markings are meager, just stating that it’s 4,700 uF/50V, in black packaging, model item (?) „424308“. It gave a run for their money to everybody else, and at a fair price. A very good one. To be offered as an optional alternative to standard F&T caps in the HPH-A series, at no extra cost.

Disclaimer

The above is an abbreviated version of OUR findings, after an INTERNAL test related ONLY TO OUR products. It is NOT intended and posted as a general comment on the above manufactures’ products.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 11:08 AM   #4105
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post

Elna General purpose 10,000 uF/63V, Catalog pg. 88

....

Fisher & Tausche 10,000 uF/63V 50*80

....

Elna was very clean and clear, but lacked deep bass impetus. Nichicon about the same, but choosing between the two, Elna would be chosen.

....

It is NOT intended and posted as a general comment on the above manufactures’ products.
Phew...

Of course, if you compare a generic Elna with a Premium product, the outcome is obvious...

I suspect F&T would do less well against the equivalent Audio versions from Elna...



Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 12:27 PM   #4106
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



Phew...

Of course, if you compare a generic Elna with a Premium product, the outcome is obvious...

I suspect F&T would do less well against the equivalent Audio versions from Elna...



Ciao T
What "premium product"? That F&T costs about 2/3 of the Elna and is as serial as it could possibly be.

Check out its prices at http://www.buerklin.de , try and check out the prices of the Elnas and then tell me who's the premium here.

Since I am, however you look at it, the auslander here, it's possible you could have better sources, with different prices for each type, buit this is so as I know it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind anyone beating F&T and would gladly change if the price was not too much bigger than what I pay for F&T. I am by no means married to F&T or anyone else, nor do I feel any particular love for them or anyone else. I just want the best I can get for my money, that's all. And if 20% better costs 20% more, I'm fine with that.

Last edited by dvv; 29th March 2012 at 12:30 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 01:32 PM   #4107
wahab is offline wahab  Algeria
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: algeria/france
Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Any free electrons in the electrolyte would quickly get grabbed by H+ ions?
This is indeed the case and a brand new never used electrolytic capacitor
is essentialy a short circuit at DC but once a voltage is applied the foiled
metal plate surface will endure an electrolyse that will create an insulating
film , that s why exact capacitance is defined only after some time of burn in,
wich is of course factory implemented before the device is delivered.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 01:37 PM   #4108
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvv View Post
What "premium product"? That F&T costs about 2/3 of the Elna and is as serial as it could possibly be.
Not sure what you have as retail prices etc. Last time I shopped at Bürklin (ages ago) they where mostly selling surplus/discontinued. Has that changed?

Bürklin has nothing that matches the Elna "For Audio" I have, but their 10,000uF/63V Cap is a slightly smaller size than the 18,000uF/71V I have and costs around 20-30% more than what I pay for the Elna. Maybe your Prices for the Elna are very unreasonable? Where are they from? Elna Europe?

Ciao T
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 02:27 PM   #4109
diyAudio Member
 
vacuphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Not where whatever I am looking for is at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



I am not really a specialist on this and what I learned is well over two decades ago and before numerous prasniks (Parties) in Moscow with too much Vodca burned away more neurons than the human brain has (or the effects of heavy drinking on the brain have been exaggerated), with little opportunity to put it to use since.

However it was my understanding then that charge transfer through the electrolyte takes places as ion transfer, not electron transfer. Now again, I am not a practising chemist or physicist, but what I remember from when I learned all that stuff, Ions and electrons are very different in nature.

Of course, in the end the charge is transferred from one plate of the capacitor to the other, however, again, I seem to remember that it made a difference which way it was done.

If I am in grievous error on this account or the state of common knowledge on the subject has changed in the interim, I'll appreciate the correction.

Ciao T

It works just like any other capacitor as two conductors separated by an isolator, with the isolator being a thin layer of aluminum oxide, and the electrolyte functioning as one of the plates.

You originally wrote, just to keep the reader informed : The electrolyte itself is another issue. Electrolytic Capacitors operate more like a battery, with conversions between domains (electrons - ions), which are absent in Film Capacitors and even in these horrible low grade ceramics.

No, the electrolyte acts just as a conductor, not like in a battery at all. Further, in a capacitor, no charge is transferred from one plate to the other, as you wrote, because that is where the insulating layer comes in between. All charge for one plate comes or goes through one lead, and all charge for the other plate comes or goes through the other lead.

(all this leaving imperfections aside)
__________________
Everything is somewhere. Where the @!#$ is it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2012, 03:25 PM   #4110
diyAudio Member
 
scott wurcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: cambridge ma
No one has mentioned the old Mallory "computer" grade caps. They were truely huge, I have 2 .1F @ 125V somewhere in storage.
__________________
Silence is so accurate.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality Control differences = variations in sound quality? KT Class D 3 4th June 2014 12:02 AM
Sound Card for Measurements Marik Solid State 2 2nd January 2012 08:59 PM
Sound Card Recommendations (For Audio Measurements) dchisholm Equipment & Tools 5 16th July 2011 09:40 AM
How to protect sound card during amp measurements? okapi Everything Else 13 2nd September 2008 03:06 PM
Sound cards - test and measurements jackinnj Everything Else 2 5th July 2003 03:02 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:05 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2