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Old 13th March 2012, 09:10 PM   #3381
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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dvv,
Not questioning or challenging, everyone knows I am in no position to do so. For educational insight, I do not understand the connection between the IPS CCS and the far side of the inputs. Does this do something for PSRR?
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Old 13th March 2012, 10:50 PM   #3382
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I was there at the beginning of the Citation XX project. I, in fact, approved Matti Otala's coming to the USA to design amps and preamps. We had worked together, before, and this was a chance to do something really right. It was 1978.

The first design put forth by Matti Otala was all bipolar, based on a complementary video amp sort of design. Very good, by the way, fast and high current. My assignment was to make a 'bullet proof' tracking dual supply for the amp that would supply lots of current (not 200A, however) and be SOTA. I got started at my lab in California, and regularly visited HK as the need arose. I built a virtually 'bullet proof' dual linear tracking supply that actually tripped the 30 amp building breaker, rather than self-destruct with a direct short across it. Everything seemed OK. However, politics was in the wind, and apparently Matti did not like me sharing the 'limelight'.

What he did was take me aside and ask me to put out a bit of extra time and effort on the power supply, in order to speed up the development. I was, at the time, on 1/2 time or about 25 hours/week, so I had the time available, so I did it. However, when my billing changed, and I requested payment for twice the hours that I normally did, the S--- hit the fan! I felt bad that I did not 'cover myself' by asking my immediate supervisors first, but I presumed that Matti Otala would cover me, since it was at his request that I did the extra work. Well, he didn't, and they terminated me immediately, with annoyance. Nothing I could say would clear me, they thought I had overstepped my contract. Yup, Matti 'hung me out to dry'. Kind of sad, except I was offered a new proposition to have my own corporation: JC Audio Designs, by a Japanese investor. I just went on to found that company (another story entirely).

What about the aftermath? Well it took years for the Citation Amp to be built, and it was unrecognizable from its beginnings, but I was not shown the schematic. I saw that they had decided NOT to use a regulated power supply, that they had pretty good performance, and the amp had the unprecedented retail cost of $5000. When I saw it at CES, I mentioned to Matti that I, too, had made a new power amp for VMPS, called the 4Q-2, a 250W balanced bridge amp with 2A Iq (64W), regulated supply, and 3 air-blown heatsinks, and it was just down the hall. When I asked Matti, WHY the amp was so costly, he said it was partially because he used gold plated circuit boards.
Oh well, however decades later, I found that Matti Otala had ripped me off, taking MY complementary differential jfet input stage and using it instead of his original design, without telling me. I will never completely forgive him for that.

So he got me removed from my job as consultant at HK, AND he took my circuit topology (that I always knew was better than his), what a guy!
Over the decades, we remained distant colleagues. I was never brought in for another paper, etc. and we would say hello, if we met on occasion. Still, for all his political infighting, he really taught me a lot over the decades.
I'm starting to understand you more John, your edge that is , it's a shield , your a softy .... Pay attn TVR ...


Some Info on the XX..
http://www.popolo.com/citation.html


....

Last edited by a.wayne; 13th March 2012 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 13th March 2012, 10:54 PM   #3383
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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OK some graphs looking at amplifiers, ones that knee buckles below 8 ohms and the ones that don't ...

Electrocompaniet, Goldmund, Plinus Class-a mode...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EC1.jpg (37.0 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg GULDMUND1.jpg (49.9 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg PLINUS CLASS-A 1.jpg (56.2 KB, 97 views)
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:00 PM   #3384
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Krell EVO 600
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:18 PM   #3385
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,

They where made 32 years ago, there are parts that cannot be replaced and the numbers made where small. In 1980 the price 1.5 Million Yen.

Your best bet may be HiFido - Buy your used audio equipments .

Good luck.

Ciao T

Well here yah go, I guess someone feels this thing is worth something ...

Citation XX; XXP - Stereo Power Amplifier; Preamplifier Set | eBay
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:18 PM   #3386
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I was there at the beginning of the Citation XX project. I, in fact, approved Matti Otala's coming to the USA to design amps and preamps. We had worked together, before, and this was a chance to do something really right. It was 1978. [snip]

Oh well, however decades later, I found that Matti Otala had ripped me off, taking MY complementary differential jfet input stage and using it instead of his original design, without telling me. I will never completely forgive him for that.

So he got me removed from my job as consultant at HK, AND he took my circuit topology (that I always knew was better than his), what a guy!
Over the decades, we remained distant colleagues. I was never brought in for another paper, etc. and we would say hello, if we met on occasion. Still, for all his political infighting, he really taught me a lot over the decades.
Of course he made his TIM (also hardly that new an idea) into a virtual industry, and got a lot of things wrong along the way as well. But the combination of getting you into trouble with h/k AND ripping your designs off is unconscionable

But as you say, you have learned a lot.

I've had some analogous experiences, perhaps not so blatant. One unnamed but famous audio personage once visited me in my lab at UCLA. After some friendly exchanges I mentioned that I was surprised that settling time was not a parameter in audio circles, although added that with audio (as opposed to sample-holds etc. ahead of A/D converters) one had to be concerned not just with how soon you could look at a voltage or current to good accuracy, but also how you "got there" (overshoot/ringing being potentially audible). The person didn't quite scoff at the idea of settling time, but clearly discounted it as a parameter of significance.

Some years later I heard him waxing about a new amplifier from company S, touting its extraordinarily fast settling time.

A guy who managed to persuade a professor to refuse to let me make a pulsed-reset preamp for his infrared speckle interferometer, which made me decide to leave UCLA after 17 years of successful instrumentation, went on to prevent a grad student from observing any objects on the latter's observing list whe they were at the telescope. Then the observing list appeared, verbatim, in a grant proposal from this crook. But crime can pay for a while --- he went on to head the Space Telescope Science Institute for a time.
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:21 PM   #3387
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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I might add that the first unnamed individual was famous for paranoia over his ideas being stolen...
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:37 PM   #3388
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Of course, bcarso. Ortofon ripped off my patented Levinson JC-1 virtually part for part, AFTER I tried to get them to license it, from as early as 1974. I even put the mathematics up on a blackboard at Ortofon, in 1976, showing its inherent advantages over many designs. In 1978, they introduced it as their OWN design, at the Japan Audio Fair. I wrote a strong letter, both to Ortofon, and to the head of HK, who owned Ortofon at the time. I got a 'laughable' response. Should have taught me to keep my mouth shut, but I still give away too much, at times. I AM very sensitive of people taking an idea that I personally gave them, and taking it for their own, but the reason they have the information is because of my need to 'show off'! And so it goes.
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:38 PM   #3389
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Well here yah go, I guess someone feels this thing is worth something ...

Citation XX; XXP - Stereo Power Amplifier; Preamplifier Set | eBay
As a Recovering eBayer (HI BRAD!!!) I'm happy to say I wasn't even tempted to click on this, or even make a Best Offer
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Old 13th March 2012, 11:41 PM   #3390
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Originally Posted by bcarso View Post
the combination of getting you into trouble with h/k AND ripping your designs off is unconscionable
+10
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