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Old 13th March 2012, 09:13 AM   #3331
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
What is missing here is Mid Fi, which is where SAE, solid state Marantz, HK (most solid state) etc. could be placed. Today 'High Fidelity' is separated into 'High End' and 'Mid Fi' primarily. If any of you would just look at the 'build quality' of the two, you would come to understand the potential difference.
While I agree in general, I must point out some difficulties. SAE for example got their act together circa 1980 and produced models such as X25 series, which were a far cry from their original models, MUCH improved all around, and especially in awkward load drive capability.

I always thought it was a good move but late by about 4 or 5 years.

Agreed on Harman's general wares, but again, we have a slight problem here, their Citation series.

Many believe their Citation XX was THE ultimate audio power amplifier, but it's rare as hell, and despite many efforts, I never once managed to see a test of it anywhere.

Later models were more down to earth, but again quite a way above your Mid Fi level, I'd say somewhere in a limbo between Mid Fi and High End.

Marantz is easier to pinpoint. Their 1978-1980 series were, in my view, the best they ever made in terms of regular production models (meaning they were not some special series, etc), and I should know, I have a cupboard full of them, mostly restored (except for two, which are in the works). After 1980, they had their share of Esotec series, with a couple of formidable amps, but that was it. Today, I see them and upper midrange Japanese weares. Which is a polite way of saying that they were big while their designs were done in USA, and manufacturing in Japan.

In my view, Marantz was a victim of changing owners.

I don't want to put anyone down, but their Ken Ishiwata strikes me as a clown more than anything else. Just a wanna-be. Not the Real Deal. But that's just me.
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Old 13th March 2012, 09:20 AM   #3332
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Tvr, this purchase of yours might be the best investment you have made recently, saving you time and keeping you from potential mistakes. You might actually learn a bit more of what 'real' designers know about devices, as well.
I wholeheartedly second this.

It will, at the very least, clearly demonstrate to you why some of us old guys, who were weaned on stuff like that, are so unhappy with what we are given as Data Sheets today.
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Old 13th March 2012, 01:20 PM   #3333
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Citation XX ? What about the 16....?
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Old 13th March 2012, 01:40 PM   #3334
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Citation XX ? What about the 16....?
At least in looks the 16 is as low end as they come. Horrible.

Compared to that the XX is true high end in style AND design:

Click the image to open in full size.

Next to that the 16 looks like a homebuild Hafler kit:

Click the image to open in full size.

Ciao T
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Old 13th March 2012, 01:55 PM   #3335
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Interesting , never heard of the XX ....
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Old 13th March 2012, 02:04 PM   #3336
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Interesting , never heard of the XX ....
You should check it out, service manual too. The circuit is rather esotheric. Unlike any other commercial Amp I have seen (and I have seen one or two in my time).

The lower units of the "X Series" (that is X as letter X, not as roman numeral) are tame by comparison, merely fully symmetric cascoded fet inputs and so on. Though many of the followers of Self would probably have their eyes popping out at the mere sight...

The 700 Range is also worth a look.

It is noteworthy that these units where all designed and made in Japan for HK with input from Matti Ottala...

Ciao T
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Old 13th March 2012, 04:25 PM   #3337
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Very interesting attempt , but the damn thing current limits going from 8-4 ohm

So where's the beef ...

Maybe they should have asked for JC's or NP's input ......
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Old 13th March 2012, 04:40 PM   #3338
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Very interesting attempt , but the damn thing current limits going from 8-4 ohm
It does?

Here the official specs:

Power (20Hz...20Khz, IHF) : 2x 250W (RMS, 8 Ohm, THD <0,1%)
Power (1Khz, DIN) : 2x 440W (RMS, 4 Ohm, THD <0,1%)
Current capacity (HCC) : 200A

Harman/Kardon Citation XX on thevintageknob.org (click on specs)

I see no indication of current limiting anywhere.

Ciao T
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Old 13th March 2012, 04:47 PM   #3339
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Errrr...... Constant voltage ....
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Old 13th March 2012, 04:47 PM   #3340
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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I believe it was one more attempt to "revive" the Citation name that Andy Hefley was working on, and had just been cancelled and he fired, when I started as an employee at Harman Electronics (a chilling beginning). I never saw the schematics then, but they were throwing away a lot of good parts that were destined for a pilot run, and I acquired a lot of 2SK364BL (same chip as the 2SK170BL, just characterized for analog switching), as well as a bunch of 1SV103 dual varactors.

At one point I had someone measuring 364s for pinchoff and transconductance. A two-parameter match produced a bunch of pairs which were built into temperature-stabilized aluminum discs. That project was for the HIII R&D switching system, but the ambitions of the original design were toned down when the budget turned out to be rather smaller than anticipated. I still have the assemblies, which included LM35 temp sensors, heaters, heater driver Qs, and the JFETs.
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