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Old 29th February 2012, 08:39 PM   #2981
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
I remember an interview with Billy Joel talking about how to "lie" in a performance. How not to play notes and make the audience not miss them. He cautions to not listen too carefully to a lit of live performances. That's artistry.
I was in Florida for a workshop circa 2000, and at one point got a ride from a woman who lived there. Pamela put on a CD in the car, which I instantly recognized as the Rachmaninoff 3rd piano concerto, a piece I know very well (listening, not playing!!). After the opening statement of the theme the heavy lifting began. Within a short time I was fairly shouting Who in h*ll is THIS??

Because I heard EVERY note of that piano part. I had studied the score in the days of my youth. Even Rachmaninoff, even the young Horowitz, had never played ALL those notes (and we hardly cared). Pam (who is a pianist) chuckled and handed me the jewel box: Arcadi Volodos.

I listened in rapt attention and amazement. I later read that I wasn't the only person to have this reaction, and someone wrote that he was the first pianist ever to play every note that Sergei wrote.

He also does quite well on other less-athletic material

I understand he practices constantly.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:47 PM   #2982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
"There are no lies in music, only distortions, of all sorts."

Not true. I remember an interview with Billy Joel talking about how to "lie" in a performance. How not to play notes and make the audience not miss them. He cautions to not listen too carefully to a lit of live performances. That's artistry.

Out ability to capture sound, store its information, and reproduce it is so poor, we are interested in what lies make us think what we hear is music. That does not mean we should quit removing distortions and making it better step by step.
But we can pretend as if that distortions were desirable.

When I worked with Philharmonic band we once were called back from tourney to perform for pilots, because it was their professional holiday and they paid for it in advance. We quickly organized program for them, including some old good sons about pilots. One of such songs was long and boring, so we decided to modulate the last verse half tone above the pitch.

During concert everyone except bassist and singer forgot to modulate. Then keyboardist and guitarist went up, while bassist went back down. Then singer followed bassist, but somehow they got together and ended the song.

I sat in the middle of rows with my console, being red from a shame... There were mostly all professional musicians of that town in Kazakhstan who come to hear famous philharmonic band alive. After the concert when we discussed details one of them said, "Guys, you did something extraordinary good at that last verse of that song, something fresh and rythm-shaking!"

If best musicians of the town did not realize it was a sad mistake, who else did?
Resume: the difference between professional and amateur artists is, if professionals made mistake they continue as if nothing happened.

The same, as professional marketing departments highlight obvious flaws as if they are the best advantages of the design.
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Old 29th February 2012, 08:50 PM   #2983
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



That is "distortion and illusion", surely?



I do agree.

However, when a given distortion has been reduced below audibility, is there any point reducing it further while neglecting to others that are still audible?

To wit, what is the point of Amplifiers with 0.0001% 2nd HD at rated power (to not have to give DF96 another fiver for using the TLA staring with T) if speakers have 10% 2nd HD at rated power?

Matthew 7:5-6

Ciao T
If we only knew which distortions are below audibility, and which are not. My continuous theme. Yes, speakers are the biggest problem. That's how I got sidetracked into amps, is that I build speakers that are not good enough yet.

Back to Spice lessons.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:05 PM   #2984
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
If we only knew which distortions are below audibility, and which are not. My continuous theme.
That one is a lot like a russian doll or an onion.

Only after you stripped away one layer will you truely know the next one that needs stripping away (excluding members of the low church of the meter readers and double blinders that believe they already have all the answers, the wrong ones that is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Yes, speakers are the biggest problem. That's how I got sidetracked into amps, is that I build speakers that are not good enough yet.
Do not try to bend the spoon that's impossible.

Instead, only try to realize the truth: there is no spoon.

Ciao T
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Old 29th February 2012, 10:07 PM   #2985
wahab is offline wahab  Algeria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,
There is?

So if I measure lower THD I will reliably have better sound quality?

Do you have any evidence to support this?
You did surely read that i mentionned "measurements" ,
yet you re implying that i m talking of THD only..

You are too prompt to lead things where they dont belong
as such a move bring them where it suit your already made
intellectual strategy...

Of course there are other parameters like IMD although
there s quite a good correlation with THD levels , i.e ,
an amp that has low THD has generaly low IMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Well, the listening tests are on record for many decades and they have been repeatedly confirmed.

So perhaps the measurements instead are simply meaningless?
They are not meaningless , what was meaningless in such case
are the measurements protocols.

If a calculation yield a wrong result what is wrong is the computation
not the arithmetic operators....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post

To wit, what is the point of Amplifiers with 0.0001% 2nd HD at rated power (to not have to give DF96 another fiver for using the TLA staring with T) if speakers have 10% 2nd HD at rated power?
There s no point in 1ppm THD but neither in speakers with 10% THD.

I would add that given the available technology , amps/preamps
with 0.1% THD are irrelevant if the audiophile status is to be claimed...

Although some would argue that it would need higher ratios
to deserve the said distinction in listening tests....

Last edited by wahab; 29th February 2012 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:00 PM   #2986
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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If the argument is THD is THD is THD, be it speaker or amp, why can we tolerate several percent in a speaker but run screaming from the room when amps are a hundredth of that when played through said speakers? It is clear to me, we just don't understand.
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:44 PM   #2987
FrankWW is online now FrankWW  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
If the argument is THD is THD is THD, be it speaker or amp, why can we tolerate several percent in a speaker but run screaming from the room when amps are a hundredth of that when played through said speakers? It is clear to me, we just don't understand.
Ultimately, the speaker can be seen as a mechanical device that produces low order harmonic distortion (2nds a nd 3rds mostly). We are used to it just the way we're used to full spectrum illumination - it doesn't change - we don't "see" it. Electronic devices are capable of producing lots of higher order harmonic distortion some of which (eg 7ths) our bodies just can't stand and we can feel it in very small concentrations just the way we can know somebody ran down a skunk even a couple miles away.
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Old 29th February 2012, 11:52 PM   #2988
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The speakers don't produce any IMD. A linear system cannot produce intermodulation.
But, if an amp that has 1% THD, probably has 10% IMD in certain conditions...
Because is easier to measure THD, and usually a device with lower THD has lower IMD also... THD of the audio chain (that can produce IMD) needs to be lower than the THD of the speakers (that will not produce IMD).
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Old 1st March 2012, 12:24 AM   #2989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
The speakers don't produce any IMD. A linear system cannot produce intermodulation.
Thank you for good news! Speaker is a linear system, it does not produce IMD! Such a relief! But how linear system produces non - linear distortions? I would be happy if it does not...
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Old 1st March 2012, 01:28 AM   #2990
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic_real_one View Post
The speakers don't produce any IMD. A linear system cannot produce intermodulation.
But, if an amp that has 1% THD, probably has 10% IMD in certain conditions...
Because is easier to measure THD, and usually a device with lower THD has lower IMD also... THD of the audio chain (that can produce IMD) needs to be lower than the THD of the speakers (that will not produce IMD).
news to quite a number of people

aside form how worng the 1st part is by iteself the really fun part that others here are doublethinking themselves into knots over is that even a hypothetical "perfectly linear" piston driver does produce IMD from "Doppler effect"

even Rod Elliot figured it out eventually Doppler Distortion in loudspeakers

all it takes is to clearly measure is a cheap condenser mic and a classic bookself speaker with long throw 4-6" mid-woofer
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