Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

[simon7000]

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Well I have never taken Crown's DC moniker lightly, why should anyone else...


Personally i have never seen the attraction and have seen them do just what you have described over the decades. I used Mac over them in the 70's ,Bryston, SAE and Hill in the 80's, Crest and QSC in the 80/90's ...

Granted no Stadiums , but never , never , ever fancied the sound or reliability of their amplifiers ...


.

Macs would need reinforcements to the floor! (And would break the budget.)
Bryston tends to melt power supply caps long term!
SAE also was known to melt voice coils!
Hill would be a bit of a bother to get it all on time and at a price!
Peavey owns Crest these days, but I do have them in a ballpark or so!
QSC is fine I have used them also, but the local rep, who has never been here, doesn't want me to sell them! He thinks he is protecting his existing dealers!
Lab Grupen has called about this year's game, and the caller was clueless. But I have them in the L.A. Forum.
Powersoft also said howdy, but the numbers don't work.
Ashly has the lowest failure rate, and great DSP!

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by simon7000

The only access to the speakers is to send a climber up on ropes as cranes will not be allowed in once the field is finished. So what do you think it will cost to replace a blown woofer in the field?

It will cause a further progress of Recyclonomics: new stadium, new jobs, new achievements.

[john dozier]

And now for a completley scurrilous comment. Crown was starte by missionarys who needed tape recorders that could operate under severe conditions in Africa and South America. Their original corporate motto was "By all means today for souls tomorrow". Just thought you might like to know. BTW, Their early solid state tape recorders sounded like crap. Regards

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by simon7000

Macs would need reinforcements to the floor! (And would break the budget.)
Bryston tends to melt power supply caps long term!

Yes but only when ran at 2 ohms and Bryston refreshed them for free every 2 yrs ... ( 80's)

Originally Posted by simon7000

SAE also was known to melt voice coils!

Yes so we used them on the mids , never had issues there , they did so when used on the bass ..(80's)

Originally Posted by simon7000

Hill would be a bit of a bother to get it all on time and at a price!

Yes they were Pricey back in the 80's but one of the best at the time and much cheaper than Mac..

Originally Posted by simon7000

Peavey owns Crest these days, but I do have them in a ballpark or so!
QSC is fine I have used them also, but the local rep, who has never been here, doesn't want me to sell them! He thinks he is protecting his existing dealers! Lab Grupen has called about this year's game, and the caller was clueless. But I have them in the L.A. Forum. Powersoft also said howdy, but the numbers don't work. Ashly has the lowest failure rate, and great DSP!

QSC was the best for the budget period , great amps at a great price (90's) the Crest 10001 were the dangles (90's), Ohh bwoy what an amp ( Bass) I remember only working with ashley X-overs ...

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by john dozier

And now for a completley scurrilous comment. Crown was starte by missionarys who needed tape recorders that could operate under severe conditions in Africa and South America. Their original corporate motto was "By all means today for souls tomorrow". Just thought you might like to know. BTW, Their early solid state tape recorders sounded like crap. Regards

John ,

Are you suggesting consistency ......

[bcarso]

Originally Posted by simon7000

The frames when finished weigh a few tons. These are placed on flat bed trucks and shipped to the site. A crane then picks the frame up and ironworkers bolt it in place about 180 feet above the ground. To save money there is no catwalk or other access to the loudspeakers.

The only access to the speakers is to send a climber up on ropes as cranes will not be allowed in once the field is finished. So what do you think it will cost to replace a blown woofer in the field?

Conceivably, someone's job

Actually, although Gerald Stanley himself is imo a great designer, if not an audiophile (a lot of Crown business is selling to MRI manufacturers), I'm afraid the business of manufacturing, and the mechanical/thermal design for reliable/reproducible manufacturing, may be lacking at that company now. Harman companies and probably all power amp companies have had long and arduous histories of dealing with these issues, and many times the learned lessons get forgotten and buried when people retire or depart. I have some stories that would curl one's hair about the stupid politics that prevented design changes that would have enormously enhanced reliability. But I'm a little overextended as it is here, despite never expecting to do any more consulting for Harman.

[bcarso]

Originally Posted by john dozier

And now for a completley scurrilous comment. Crown was starte by missionarys who needed tape recorders that could operate under severe conditions in Africa and South America. Their original corporate motto was "By all means today for souls tomorrow". Just thought you might like to know. BTW, Their early solid state tape recorders sounded like crap. Regards

I love it! I knew that there was a heavy Mennonite presence in the early days, but didn't know the missionary/tape recorder story.

I joked with Brad P. once that I'd heard that a certain ex-Harman person, who always seemed to be embedded in Noo Yawk stoop game maneuvers to put you off balance, and was almost universally reviled, was working for Crown (this before the acquisition). Now the Mennonites are not as radical as the Amish (sorry if I am violating terms here to not talk about religion, so let's just say this is Sociology), but I envisioned this individual driving a horse and buggy and dressed in black in Elkhart. I imagined recognizing him and hailing him, and his saying "Hey! Don't blow my covah!"

[dvv]

I am at a slight loss here ...

I've looked over the schematics of the SAE amps I have and I notice all them were capacitor coupled, both at the input and the NFB part. Theoretically, this should stop all DC and probably some subsonics altogether. Yet here we have talk of SAE amps burning out speakers.

How? What was wrong, does anybody know?

As for Crown, I have heard only their IC150 (I think that was the preamp) and their DC300 (a power amp rated at 150 Wrms, if memory serves), from the early 70-ies. Outstanding build quality, but I found the sound to be rather dead and uninvloving - did I get it wrong?

[dvv]

Originally Posted by john dozier

And now for a completley scurrilous comment. Crown was starte by missionarys who needed tape recorders that could operate under severe conditions in Africa and South America. Their original corporate motto was "By all means today for souls tomorrow". Just thought you might like to know. BTW, Their early solid state tape recorders sounded like crap. Regards

Which is a somewhat odd story, I think. At the time, Switzerland's Nagra and Stellavox were strong proven players and MUCH smaller than the behemoth Crown produced. Uher's Report series was also on, not as sophisticated as its Swiss counterparts, but WAY more affordable, in both stereo 4 track and 2 track, and mono (Report 4400 and 4200, plus 4000 mono).

The same guy who bought their preamp and power amp also had their tape machine. As an avid open reel tape freak, I found it to sound way below its competitors, although again, I am not sure even tanks were built that way in those days. An Ampex or an MCI ran circles around it in terms of sound quality, as did Studer and even reVox decks.

And it was none too cheap, either.

[ThorstenL]

Hi,

Originally Posted by dvv

Which is a somewhat odd story, I think. At the time, Switzerland's Nagra and Stellavox were strong proven players and MUCH smaller than the behemoth Crown produced. Uher's Report series was also on, not as sophisticated as its Swiss counterparts, but WAY more affordable, in both stereo 4 track and 2 track, and mono (Report 4400 and 4200, plus 4000 mono).

Crown's founding was in 1947.

There was very little tape machine production at all (as the allied's had only just looted the Telefunken Tape recorders from Germany two years earlier and most of Europe was in a bad state).

Crown incidentally was not really set up to make tape machines per se, but generally ruggedised broadcast and public address equipment for use in "uncivilised" places, so the Gospel could be spread. Tape machines came originally simply as modifications of units of other makers.

They used to be called "International Radio and Electronics Corporation", a bit of a mouth full. Especially for a company that worked out of a chicken coop... They eventually moved more into the Pro-Audio market place in the 70's.

Their gear always made sure the voice of the preacher could be VERY LOUD, though not necessarily pleasant. The Crown Amp's I encountered in the 80's and early 90's where massive powerhouses with a sound quality best described as hammered excrement.

In the 80's almost any brand of pro amplifier I encountered had glaring defects of various kinds (some would brew up at the slightest provocation, others would sound bad, weak, not drive speakers well and so on).

The Zeck "BiMos" Range (German Company and design) did better than most in my experience (they where basically Hitachi App-Not Amp's with 1 Pair of K135/J50 Mosfets and a bank of Bipolar "current dumpers). We also liked the big Yammies (Yamaha) and would use Peavy CS-800/1200 in a chinch, or build our own (especially for insanely powerful units dedicated driving bass horns and lower mid horns).

Ciao T