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Old 23rd February 2012, 06:07 PM   #2711
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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TL,

I can see consensus in your selection, i was really thinking more about Harmon international Era , not H/K , I should have been clearer on that ...


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Harman Kardon Citation II Stereo Amplifier - Working Condition - Original Tubes | eBay

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Harman Kardon Commander UPR1 Universal Program Public Address Line Amplifier NEW | eBay

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Old 23rd February 2012, 07:36 PM   #2712
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Sidney used to say he'd only worked for two people in his life: The guy at Bogen, where he decided that his stuff always blew up, and Jimmy Carter.

Kardon was a famous radio guy of course, son of Peter Kardon, and he wasn't Sid's partner for very long and was strongly downplayed in Harman literature. I have an antique radio book that belonged to my father that would have driven Sidney crazy, as it barely mentions him

I don't know enough about the early Harman equipment to comment on what the best era was, although I'm inclined to concur with Thorsten and believe the Citation tube stuff was excellent. Richie Miller is credited for the later wide-bandwidth high-current solid-state designs, although other people may well have been involved.

The degree in Social Psychology is legitimate in the sense that the issuing institution was accredited. However, Sid wrote an essay, cited long work experience, and sent a check. When a diploma arrived he showed it to his associate and said, according to lore, "Well. I'm surprised I got this, but I'm going to use it." Within a day the name on his door was prefaced with a "Dr."

But when, much later, Harman acquired Becker, one of the key people there who afaik lives on decided he wasn't going to suffer being addressed as other than Dr. The PhD he acquired was in Russian Economics. Oddly the document is inaccessible, generally a sign in academia that something is a little funny.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 08:22 PM   #2713
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarso View Post
Sidney used to say he'd only worked for two people in his life: The guy at Bogen, where he decided that his stuff always blew up, and Jimmy Carter.

Kardon was a famous radio guy of course, son of Peter Kardon, and he wasn't Sid's partner for very long and was strongly downplayed in Harman literature. I have an antique radio book that belonged to my father that would have driven Sidney crazy, as it barely mentions him

I don't know enough about the early Harman equipment to comment on what the best era was, although I'm inclined to concur with Thorsten and believe the Citation tube stuff was excellent. Richie Miller is credited for the later wide-bandwidth high-current solid-state designs, although other people may well have been involved.

The degree in Social Psychology is legitimate in the sense that the issuing institution was accredited. However, Sid wrote an essay, cited long work experience, and sent a check. When a diploma arrived he showed it to his associate and said, according to lore, "Well. I'm surprised I got this, but I'm going to use it." Within a day the name on his door was prefaced with a "Dr."

But when, much later, Harman acquired Becker, one of the key people there who afaik lives on decided he wasn't going to suffer being addressed as other than Dr. The PhD he acquired was in Russian Economics. Oddly the document is inaccessible, generally a sign in academia that something is a little funny.

Ha... same as another (In)famous person ... ................
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Old 23rd February 2012, 08:24 PM   #2714
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



The original Citation Tube based range. It was downhill from there, ever accelerating like a vertical drop rollercoaster.

Ciao T

PS, I had a look at the HK680, Dejan holds in such great esteem, it's not a bad design, but I take the Tube HK Citation I/II any day.
Of course you will, Thorsten, you are a tube man, and that's OK.

As for HK 680, yes, I do respect it, but sonically it has its share of faults. I mean, while very good in its class, it's hardly the best I've ever come across. Let's just say I think it's better than most, but not as good as some.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 08:45 PM   #2715
BFNY is offline BFNY  United States
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
I'm surprised that a Revox puts out subsonics. Could it be long distance multipath? Aircraft reflections?
Those tones are most likely low frequency CTCSS control tones, or something similar. They are/were used by some FM repeaters to ensure no one else can tune in to it's receive frequency and transmit on it. Also used to suppress squelch in private transmission systems, sometimes perhaps used between radio transmission facility and the station control booth.

Continuous Tone-Coded Squelch System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:07 PM   #2716
BFNY is offline BFNY  United States
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Originally Posted by jcx View Post
less than half, more like 1/4 - look up critical band/bark scale

roughly we lump everything in 100 Hz wide bands together below 500 Hz, and ~ 20% fracton of the center frequency bandwidths above

with ~24 critical bands only 6 are below 640 Hz

also look at loudness curves - dynamic range is much reduced compared to mid frequency as well

which given the lumpy frequency response from modal behavior of small rooms its probably just as well we don't resolve that well at low bass
Those are good points, I see the Bark Scale has also been updated by later research i.e. ERB or Equivalent Rectangular Bandwidth scale.

Yes, the equal loudness curves I've seen before, between 70-90dB the audibility of lower tones is not nearly as diminished as at low levels. At 100Hz, the difference from 1kHz is only 3-5 dB at 90-70dB, and 9-12dB at 60Hz for the same levels.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 09:15 PM   #2717
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Why would an FM broadcaster want to use CTCSS tones? Most of them are only just subsonic, too. Maybe the offending station has a Tx fault?
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Old 23rd February 2012, 10:02 PM   #2718
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Default SID Distortion

Courtesy of the Dept. of Redundancy Department, and something that happened at Harman a lot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SID Distortion.jpg (931.1 KB, 88 views)
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Old 23rd February 2012, 10:35 PM   #2719
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Originally Posted by bcarso View Post
What puzzles me is who might be left in the vast Harman empire who knows how to design non-switching amps. The company has been IMO on a downward spiral of truly ghastly proportions,
A few Crown Presidents ago they did a dog and pony show in Chicago. I went and got to meet the then chief engineer, the new Pres and a bunch of older Crown friends.

Since I come from a smaller company the newbies shook hands and went off elsewhere. At a lunch that day I sat at their table and pulled out one of their new brochures showing the Stadiums and Arenas around the world that used Crown amplifiers. I mentioned that all of the ones in the US were mine. The Pres quickly moved away from the table and cornered one of my friends who told him it was true. He was a bit nicer after that.

Well virtually all of those guys are gone.

Back at last years NY AES Harman was there, after a several year lapse, with a few toys. I said my howdies and mentioned to them that I would be buying loudspeakers from them for this year's project, but would not be buying Crown amplifiers. They accepted the news with the comment they were aware of the problems.

Now sitting next to my desk is an amplifier brought in by a local venue. Last week they brought in their 18" woofer from a drum monitor. The owner was concerned that his house soundman blew it up. Using my pocket diagnostic tool I removed the what appeared to be a perfect cone. It was except the voice coil had burned cleanly off the form. Now that means that the speaker was not played too loud! It means the amplifier out DC into the voice coil. Now it has been at least 20 years since I have seen that kind of failure.

Now for my current project we are mounting the weather sealed loudspeakers to steel frames. Some frames have as many as 9 loudspeakers. Each weighs 200 pounds or so and comes shipped to us on it's own pallet.

The frames when finished weigh a few tons. These are placed on flat bed trucks and shipped to the site. A crane then picks the frame up and ironworkers bolt it in place about 180 feet above the ground. To save money there is no catwalk or other access to the loudspeakers.

The only access to the speakers is to send a climber up on ropes as cranes will not be allowed in once the field is finished. So what do you think it will cost to replace a blown woofer in the field?
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Old 23rd February 2012, 11:31 PM   #2720
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Well I have never taken Crown's DC moniker lightly, why should anyone else...


Personally i have never seen the attraction and have seen them do just what you have described over the decades. I used Mac over them in the 70's ,Bryston, SAE and Hill in the 80's, Crest and QSC in the 80/90's ...

Granted no Stadiums , but never , never , ever fancied the sound or reliability of their amplifiers ...


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Last edited by a.wayne; 23rd February 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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