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Old 16th February 2012, 03:16 PM   #2471
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
My initial thoughts are that the SATA cables used for disk drives might be a good starting point.
Have fun. At least used as Hard drive connectors they have an extremely poor reliability record. Please, someone bring SCSI and ATA back...

Ciao T
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:20 PM   #2472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john dozier View Post
Might I suggest, gentlemen, that flaws in the electronics may be masked (or hidden) by the transducer used.
Not my experience. In fact, quite the opposite (which has been the source of many surprising discoveries). Certainly transducers have their flaws, but its the flaws of electronics which result in listener fatigue. I'm listening at present to some very inexpensive active speakers that I've worked on electronics for for quite some time. Improvements in the electronics are clearly noticeable behind whatever flaws they have (and being cheap, they're bound to be many and various).

Quote:
The most difficult energy transformations are still mechanical to electrical and vice versa I.E. microphones and speakers. Until perfect transducers are invented! many of the points raised are moot. Regards
Its a claim - do you have any support for it? Care to highlight which points in particular so we can debate them?
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:24 PM   #2473
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by john dozier View Post
Might I suggest, gentlemen, that flaws in the electronics may be masked (or hidden) by the transducer used. The most difficult energy transformations are still mechanical to electrical and vice versa I.E. microphones and speakers. Until perfect transducers are invented! many of the points raised are moot. Regards
You are too timid. The worst transducer of all is the human ear. So until a "perfect" human ear is invented many measured flaws in the electronics may be masked or hidden.

Ciao T
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:30 PM   #2474
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Even simple measurements of harmonic and intermod distortion show much higher levels in speakers for example than in electronics. Soundstage in their speaker measurements section shows results for many speakers, from the NRC of Canada. You would be surprised at the results for some "well regarded" models. Thorsten may well have hit the nail on the head-the ear and its associated processing gear may be the most flawed device in the reproduction chain-also the most variable due to the shape of the pinnae. Regards
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:31 PM   #2475
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Hi,



You are too timid. The worst transducer of all is the human ear. So until a "perfect" human ear is invented many measured flaws in the electronics may be masked or hidden.

Ciao T
This reminds me of what someone said about the late Buckminster Fuller: to wit, that he was an a**hole, but was at least "our a**hole".

Yes the amount of IM produced in the human ear is astonishing. Try playing some of the Telemann on recorders that is written to specifically exploit this and makes its own bass line from the difference frequencies! (discussed iirc in Benade's cute little paperback, Horns, Strings, and Harmony).

But --- we adapt to this I think. So our judgments are not as impossible in some contexts as might be thought.


Brad
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:32 PM   #2476
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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John,
This is for a different scale, but is this the correct theory on active power line filtering?
http://web.ing.puc.cl/~power/paperspdf/dixon/37a.pdf
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:33 PM   #2477
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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10 years in failure analysis: No such thing as a good cable connector. Just some are worse than others. No good sockets, no good pots.....
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:44 PM   #2478
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
It has to be so easy, How easy? Easy enough for my wife to use it. Easier than just putting in a disk and push play. So far, not impressed with what I have seen. I am guessing something based on a touch screen PC I can build into a wall or door where it is always up, and only the screen gets turned on and off.
The following links give a view of this whole computer audio malarke from the position of a 60+ retired long standing audiophile and includes references to his wife's use. It may make nice reading for perspective (there are more blog posts on the subject and things not in strict sequence)...

http://diyhifisupply.com/node/707

Music Server Computer transport - Round 1! | Diy HiFi Supply

http://diyhifisupply.com/node/793

Fi For Flora: Asus EB1501 -- Honey I Shrunk the Bits, Part 2 | Diy HiFi Supply

Fi For Flora - Done! But I know What You're Thinking... | Diy HiFi Supply

Ciao T
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:45 PM   #2479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
At least used as Hard drive connectors they have an extremely poor reliability record.
I've had some fails too - even straight out of the plastic - the cables themselves are just too cheap. Last one I bought was a 50cm, price 3rmb. ISTM Chinese manufacturers have a habit of reducing the Cu content of cables below the minimum needed to conduct....

Quote:
Please, someone bring SCSI and ATA back...
ST506 too? No, let's not go there.
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Old 16th February 2012, 03:53 PM   #2480
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
10 years in failure analysis: No such thing as a good cable connector. Just some are worse than others. No good sockets, no good pots.....
Agree. The module approach was always coming up every few years at Harman and elsewhere, whether in the form of a handbook of "proven" reusable circuits (so all risk could be removed from the design process and sacred schedules mantained, and the managers not lose their jobs) to the notion of reconfigurable products.

And...it can be done. The connection problem is huge, but the bigger problems with things configured from modules is --- the resulting system is never cheaper. There is simply too much redundancy, compared to a product designed to meet specific objectives.

And as for the reusable circuits, when we attempted to catalog them it became clear that the number was enormous. And then, what motivates your engineering staff anyway? To be told to do the same thing again and be happy you have a paycheck? Well in tough times this may keep people showing up in the morning and streaming out as the second hand crosses 12 at the departure hour, but it's not typically what we became engineers for.
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