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Old 9th February 2012, 05:05 AM   #2091
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by wahab View Post
Hi , TL

One would not be completely sincere if he was to say that thisis a useless gear and that our PC soundcards are enough
I use a EMU 1616m. It has a real 120dB dynamic range and 100KHz bandwidth (some rolloff in the DAC part can be compensated for with calibration file). The Mike Pre's and 1MOhm Inputs are a bonus for certain measurements.

Add a breakout box from Jack to BNC's (so you can use BNC terminated cables) and a PC and you have a first class audio measurement system some would have given a kidney for in the 80's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wahab View Post
but for sure that the beast is largely overpriced to the point that i put it almost with high end audio ruining tools...
It is "the standard" which carries a premium and it is rather expensive to build in small quantities. Very smart of AP to give them on extended loan to kep publications, it forces the rest of us to actually buy the darn things.

Kind of like Klippel giving a loaner of his Analyser to Vance Dickason at Voice Coil, now every driver manufacturer needs to buy so they will know what Voice Coil will print, if it is relevant or not (arguably, klippel data is more meaningful than what the AP tells you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wahab View Post
IIRC this cost about 28K/30K$
Yeah, basically chump change.

Have a look what a Top-End Tek DPO costs. I'd swap the AP2 for one of the lower end models that only cost around 50K+ US any day, but I never get any takers.

It's all horses for courses.

Ciao T
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Old 9th February 2012, 05:25 AM   #2092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
It is "the standard" which carries a premium and it is rather expensive to build in small quantities. Very smart of AP to give them on extended loan to kep publications, it forces the rest of us to actually buy the darn things.
Only those of us who actually care what the establishment publications say

Speaking of such here's a nice pic to feast your eyes on from a recent review of an $8k A+ rated digital box...

Bricasti Design M1 D/A converter Page 2 | Stereophile.com
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Old 9th February 2012, 05:56 AM   #2093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahab View Post
Let s say that there s way cheaper solutions....
No, I meant it is useless toy. If somebody wants to know whatis so special in my designs I can honestly explain, without such toys.
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Old 9th February 2012, 06:00 AM   #2094
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Only those of us who actually care what the establishment publications say
Alas, those of us having products that will be reviewed by Stereophile MUST care, as it will invariably impact sales.

We may elect to disagree with the import placed measurements or subjective assessment in this publication or even not care personally at all what they publish. However it has a significant opinion shaping effect not just in it's primary market the US (which is so bad right now for High End Audio, we might as well not care) but all around the world.

A mediocre review in this one publication can severely impact a brands perceptions worldwide, just as a good review can. As a realist I find little use kvetching about how the situation is not as I would like, but instead will just "get on with it".

Ciao T
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Old 9th February 2012, 06:24 AM   #2095
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I agree with Wavebourn. The AP is a nice machine, but it is not absolutely necessary for successful audio design. In fact, we find them rather cumbersome for a quick measurement, and that they take a long learning curve to use effectively.
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Old 9th February 2012, 07:15 AM   #2096
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@Wayne

While I'll readily agree a transformer is of utmost importance to the sound we eventually hear, there are limits.

You seem to forget that not all transformers were born equal, i.e. the quality factor. To use a drastic example, if a toroid's core is made of classic materials, as most of us use, that's one thing, but if somebody make a nominally same core made of sintered materials, he will have a transformer way out of this world, capable of delivering about 3 times its nominal power in peaks without significant distortion. Unfortunatley, it will do so at a prohibitively high price.

And the ultimate perversion - such a transformer will, over time, start to produce even better results then when new - not by much, say 1...3% better. This is because over time, sintered materials tend to become even more compact, eliminating still some more empty space within itself and thus becoming more efficient.

I use sintered material toroids in my filters. After about two years of being plugged into the wall socket, which is about 15,000 hours of operation, the actual measured results will improve across the board by 1...2 dB. ALWAYS, no exceptions.

Under normal conditions, it does matter how was a transformer wound, with what kind og wire, how was its insulation programmed, etc, etc, etc. This is why I stressed the point that my transformers were of the custom type. I honestly don't know what its manufacturer does, but I do know that when it's exchanged for a cheaper standard type, the sound degrades - it's that simple. But I have to pay a premium, and I don't mind doing it because I get demonstraby better transformers.

I was told once by an old man making them that a good offhand measure of a toroidal transformer's quality was its quiescent current consumption. The less current it uses all by itself, the better the product. He demonstrated it for me by taking a well known British product, a transformer rated at 300 VA, which was found to use 37 mA all of its own, and compared it to his 500 VA transformer, which gobbled up 27 mA.

My point is, the bigger, the better idea is not that simple. Your power supply laso uses some wiring, so it's another factor. Then there are your filter capacitors - size is nice, and we should pay attention to it, but you cannot remove the quality factor from the equation, some are simply better sounding than others. I'd rather have smaller capacity but higher quality, than otherwise.

Lastly, with all due respect, but my experience has it that a fully electronically regulated power supply will always and up as better than a massive filter bank, even if it's so massive that eventually it starts to look and act like a full electronic regulator. A little more complex, always more expensive, but in terms of results, always the best, I think.
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Old 9th February 2012, 07:27 AM   #2097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorstenL View Post
Alas, those of us having products that will be reviewed by Stereophile MUST care, as it will invariably impact sales.
Yep, no disagreement. As Morpheus says 'they are the gatekeepers, they are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys'.

Quote:
A mediocre review in this one publication can severely impact a brands perceptions worldwide, just as a good review can. As a realist I find little use kvetching about how the situation is not as I would like, but instead will just "get on with it".
A real realist would not even have preferences ('like this, don't like that'), just get on with the task of creating reality in his/her image.
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Old 9th February 2012, 08:06 AM   #2098
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
It is not encouraging Self describing even the IPS as too complicated to calculate without Spice.
I don't know what 'IPS' refers to, but that sentence does chime with something I was going on about a few posts ago: that there is a level of maths to which people think they must go in order to understand something, but in reality they then only understand a very simplified version. If all you're doing is taking an existing given circuit configuration and plugging numbers into the prescribed formula, then you might as well let SPICE do the work for you. Understanding what the circuit is doing is completely different from being able to calculate it - which is is simply mechanical.
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Old 9th February 2012, 08:26 AM   #2099
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Thinking about this, I might go so far as to make the following generalisation:

A person creating an electronic simulation program would not have to know anything about electronics, but have a reasonable amout of maths. Conversely, an engineer practising electronics, with access to the simulator, would not have to know any maths at all...
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Old 9th February 2012, 08:32 AM   #2100
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Right - the design engineer will use heuristics, not math in the process of designing. Math works at the lower level to get certain details correct but can't help actually make design decisions.
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