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Old 19th September 2013, 07:07 AM   #10381
dvv is offline dvv  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
There is an inverse relationship between C and density and a positive relationship with stiffness. So, based on some sense of materials you can guestimate titanium to be far slower than berrylium. Looked it up in a table and indeed it is; even slower than aluminium.

By increasing the stiffness by for example creating a thick oxide coating on aluminium, you can make C larger.

For dome tweeters I think this can be benificial, although there are very good domes made out of soft material. A problem with stiff materials is energy retention, so this is one of those trade offs that makes creating drivers somewhat of an art-meets-science.

For cone drivers, my experience is that most fast materials have downsides. Paper or PE cones still sound superior to my ears, with some notable exceptions. PE is a fairly slow material and I have never been able to find information on C in paper, which makes sense because there are so many different types. I would like to try a material with a C comparable to that of air, but alas, no such solids exist to my knowledge.
Good points!

Funny, I never thought of that in that way, when I obviously should have.

I second the motion that a quality paper cone will outsound literally everything else. I have yet to hear another material which can give it serious run for its money (I mean in any production volume, not some wildly expensive High End stuff), although just the other day I did hear a speaker with aluminium bass/mid cones (Canton, Germany, an old favorite of mine) which was really good, although a touch cold.
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Old 19th September 2013, 07:18 AM   #10382
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D , the amps you list will not drive an ESL , with the right amp bass is not an issue with quads, believe me ...

@Brad ,

accuton® Carefully selected loudspeaker drivers. | Drivers

Diamonds are for heeeevar ...
With all respect Wayne, but damn any loudspeaker which requires a special, almost one-off, amp to come alive. Such oddities have always been around, and it's easy to agree that loudspeakers always vary wildly in their drive requirements, but this is a buit too much for me.

BTW, just FYI, that Citation 24 drives the notorious Apogees without breaking any serious sweat. And my own AR 94 speakers tend to sweat many a commercial amp offering, such as my own Sansui AU-X 701, which doesn't like the ARs at all, while all H/K amps drive them no problemo even at unholy SPLs.

So, go on, make my day, tell me I need a Quad amp to drive Quad speakers and not much else, if anything, will do.
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Old 19th September 2013, 10:07 AM   #10383
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Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Kevlar, ceramic, fiberglass, fiberglass mixed with pulp, poly, blah , blah , yes tried them all and still found treated paper best In the midrange . Unfortunalty keeping up with current zeitgeist will require usage of current "boutique" material if one wants to be taken seriously...

Treated Paper is well ......
Some paper is almost as high tech as any wonder material . Chaos helps and the fact the fibres are relaxed . No high Q peaks . Royd ( you won't know them ) had 20 fibres in the mix , one was nylon . Paper is the advanced form of carbon fibre . Carbon fibre was the careful research after a fire at a nylon plant . Like my story of A bombs and Jesus alas I was never there to give you my witness . Sounds weird enough to be true .

Kevlar in the paper ? Great . Buckminsterfullerene ?
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Old 19th September 2013, 10:10 AM   #10384
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Originally Posted by dvv View Post
With all respect Wayne, but damn any loudspeaker which requires a special, almost one-off, amp to come alive. Such oddities have always been around, and it's easy to agree that loudspeakers always vary wildly in their drive requirements, but this is a buit too much for me.

BTW, just FYI, that Citation 24 drives the notorious Apogees without breaking any serious sweat. And my own AR 94 speakers tend to sweat many a commercial amp offering, such as my own Sansui AU-X 701, which doesn't like the ARs at all, while all H/K amps drive them no problemo even at unholy SPLs.

So, go on, make my day, tell me I need a Quad amp to drive Quad speakers and not much else, if anything, will do.
Quirkiness and passion is OK you know . I suspect your amp is the one for these speakers .
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Old 19th September 2013, 10:36 AM   #10385
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Paper IS the wonder advanced fiber compoite. OK, so it is 6000 years old. Don't mess with suscess. Right now, the best mid woofer ( Seas Reed paper) and best sub ( Peerless XLS) I have been able to afford are celelous fiber composites. I was a soft dome fan until the last pair of Seas aluminum domes I used. I guess I just had not used any good enough before.

Howerer, if I were to make the last few steps in Seas or ScanSpeak, most of them are soft domes. Hmmmm. I bet the execution matters more than the material.

I have no problem with a speaker requiring a special amplifier, but it would need to be part of the package. It does give the designers of both much more freedom to ply theor trade. The marketing problem is sticker shock.
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Old 19th September 2013, 11:19 AM   #10386
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You know it is the girl next door thing . Her name was Heather and she could fight as good as any boy . One day she put on some makeup and did we get a shock . I went through life realizing no girl was more beautiful ( TV neither ) . How come we never saw it until it was too late and she was married .
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Old 19th September 2013, 12:40 PM   #10387
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Paper IS the wonder advanced fiber compoite. OK, so it is 6000 years old. Don't mess with suscess. Right now, the best mid woofer ( Seas Reed paper) and best sub ( Peerless XLS) I have been able to afford are celelous fiber composites. I was a soft dome fan until the last pair of Seas aluminum domes I used. I guess I just had not used any good enough before.

Howerer, if I were to make the last few steps in Seas or ScanSpeak, most of them are soft domes. Hmmmm. I bet the execution matters more than the material.

I have no problem with a speaker requiring a special amplifier, but it would need to be part of the package. It does give the designers of both much more freedom to ply theor trade. The marketing problem is sticker shock.
I am reminded of one of my favorite American sayings - don't fix it if it ain't broke.

Paper has proved its worth in loudspeaker cones many times over the last 50 years or so. I understand and cheer on attempts to provide a still better material, but as far as I am aware, it hasn't been discovered yet. In time, it will be.
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Old 19th September 2013, 04:31 PM   #10388
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Funny thing is the smaller the better for tweeters very often ! Real small better still .

When I get a bit of time my baffle speaker project will start up again . My old boss will give me a hand . I'm helping to do a show tomorrow . That will confuse people . Just written his new price list so almost like I am still there working for him . He said to me if any good could he make them ? It would be right up his street . 15 inch paper bass , 12 inch paper mid and I suspect a ribbon top . If I get the mid to 6 kHz I will be pleased . The plan is to sound as good as my Magneplanars . A daft idea but worthy of trying . That is like asking a piston engine to compete with a jet . The elegance of the Maggie's is that of a jet . They are remarkable in not over stressing bad material as being bad . In fact it is hard then to think it is a baffle design when listening to what I call fish and chips recordings ( English fast food if you didn't know , rather good actually and started in the Jewish part of East London ) . What sounds like box distortion is the source . The Quads are not so obliging . Films are fish and chips especially if an optical sound track . Ipcress file and Alfie two of note ( same actor also ) . CD is far better, film is more involving sometimes despite the weird colouration . One needs Maggie's not to find the coluouration the feature more than the music . Other weird Maggie trait is to hear microphone pops on 78's . Thinking about it they must be there . You hear them as clear as any source .

The Maggie's should have hopeless treble , hence me saying who needs tweeters . In fact it is good and better than the Quads in terms of sparkle and reality ( Quads are not all that accurate , treble exists Quad , worse is Quad chose not to have it , it is transformer loss ) . My M's do not have the ribbon top .
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Old 19th September 2013, 06:23 PM   #10389
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Yea, but Quads are a wonderful midrange.

12 inch paper mid at 6K? Hmmm, I can;t find a 4 inch mid that is smooth to 6K. If I could, I'd love to try some OM-1's
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Old 19th September 2013, 07:42 PM   #10390
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Nigel, with that set up, your listening window would be measured in degrees.
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