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Old 28th September 2011, 12:53 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Joseph K View Post
Ok, looked up - the other two detectors were operational also in 1983.
Though, if once in a year, at some moment, they had an abnormal signal, without any corresponding supernova event.. certainly up to now nobody was doing this kind of backward searches..
Good point, but then again, my statistical gut feeling tells me this can not be the case. After all, what are the chances of having light and neutrino measurements on a confirmed supernova event that coincide so well in time?

As DF96 mentioned, GPS would not work if it where not for relativistic compensations. @sofaspud, it is et. al. time dillatation where it is compensated for. Not so much distance. So, at least the Big E. had the beginning of the curve right good enough for engineers to work with.

Perhaps there are some surprises at the asymptotes. But the start of the curve is confirmed to work.

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Old 28th September 2011, 01:29 AM   #132
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After all, what are the chances of having light and neutrino measurements on a confirmed supernova event that coincide so well in time?
No no, was not claiming that: the neutrino signal in coincidence with the SN1987A is a fact.
Wanted to say: if there would have been any part / flavor / energy portion of that signal arriving earlier - up to now nobody was explicitly searching such a thing.
 
Old 28th September 2011, 01:32 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by sofaspud View Post
Maybe it isn't relativity that needs reexamination, but instead our idea of the speed of light is off (by approximately 0.0025 percent)?
Interestingly no...the current value of C is 299,792,458 meters/second exactly. This is so because the meter is defined as the distance travelled by light in vacuum in 1/299,792,458 seconds, so the definition of the meter and C are sort of entangled. In this case the limiting factor in establishing the relationship is the accuracy of the timebase that ties C and the meter together. Today's best clocks are considered precise to a few parts in 10^14, so 0.0025% is about 8 orders of magnitude sloppier than the state of the art.
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Old 28th September 2011, 02:46 AM   #134
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^^ Yes, I should have remembered that from studying my SI units. Wikipedia says, "After centuries of increasingly precise measurements, in 1975 the speed of light was known to be 299,792,458 m/s with a relative measurement uncertainty of 4 parts per billion (4e-9)." So this 60 nanoseconds is a "sore thumb" in relativity theory (not that that was really in doubt). This is one of those threads that make me feel just a little bit smarter and a whole lot more perplexed. I doubt I'm the only one. It's a shame the Big E isn't around to comment. Hopefully some sort of answer is forthcoming before I'm gone.
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Old 28th September 2011, 01:07 PM   #135
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In a way the Big E is weighing in...that's why the effort to find the "error" predominates as the concept of C as the fixed anchor of the universe is so solidly established (crank blog posts aside) for so long as to be law rather than theory.
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Old 28th September 2011, 01:37 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Joseph K View Post
No no, was not claiming that: the neutrino signal in coincidence with the SN1987A is a fact.
Wanted to say: if there would have been any part / flavor / energy portion of that signal arriving earlier - up to now nobody was explicitly searching such a thing.
They didn't fire light through the same path and see which gets there first.
I suspect the distance through dense mass is simply less than empty space,
therefore true distance was computed wrongly.

We already know mass warps space, and that space between the galaxies
appears to grow as they accumulate mass, or maybe galaxies are shrinking.
These are probably related.

You can't shoot light unimpeded through 500 miles of dense mass, so we
probably never measured it before.
 
Old 28th September 2011, 01:54 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph K View Post
No no, was not claiming that: the neutrino signal in coincidence with the SN1987A is a fact.
Wanted to say: if there would have been any part / flavor / energy portion of that signal arriving earlier - up to now nobody was explicitly searching such a thing.
You are right, it would be interesting to see if they find something. The search must be on by now.

Just to confuse the audience further: some things we hold to be constant are not constant at all. Take the kilogram. The French institute that maintains that standard periodically recalls the kilo-clones that have been send off to all quarters of the world. These consist of platinum/irridium cylinders, which are kept in double glass bells, filled with an inert gas.

The remarkeable thing: they never weigh the same upon their return to France. This while one can be reasonably assured that the number of atoms in the cylinders has not significantly changed. So, the atomic weight must have seen some variation. The more you know, the less you understand.

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Old 28th September 2011, 04:16 PM   #138
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter
You can't shoot light unimpeded through 500 miles of dense mass, so we
probably never measured it before.
You could in theory do this with gamma rays? I don't know if it has ever been done.

I still expect someone to find an error in the calculations. Failing that, some gravitational effect due to the fact that the path is downhill at first then uphill at the end. When gravity is involved, 'straight' lines are no longer straight.
 
Old 29th September 2011, 02:16 PM   #139
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There's a recent article in the Wall Street Journal by Michio Kaku about the neutrino experiments. If you read carefully, you can see he is calling himself a crackpot since he questions Einstein.

Michio Kaku: Has a Speeding Neutrino Really Overturned Einstein? - WSJ.com
Attached Files
File Type: doc SpeedingNeutrinoOverturnedEinstein.doc (33.0 KB, 16 views)
 
Old 29th September 2011, 02:32 PM   #140
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Maybe the different viewpoints of the truth clash again:

Stars say relativity still works ? The Register

As in Kurosawa's film, Rashomon.
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