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Old 26th September 2011, 04:33 AM   #111
benb is offline benb  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Possible explanation, or at least casting doubt, here. His claim is poor statistics.
You might want to refresh that URL. There's a new file there dated 25 September 2011.
 
Old 26th September 2011, 05:51 AM   #112
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I postulate that light is stationary and it is us moving around.
After all I have been observing my desk lamp with the utmost scientific rigor for at least a half hour now, and it hasn't budged.
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Old 26th September 2011, 11:00 AM   #113
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb
You might want to refresh that URL. There's a new file there dated 25 September 2011.
The URL is still valid, but it now comes to the opposite conclusion. Thanks for alerting me to this. A good example of science at work: a physicist publishes a criticism of someone else's finding, in turn someone points out a mistake in the criticism, but instead of blustering like a politician (or snake oil salesman) he retracts and explains his error.

There will probably be a few more examples like this, as the community struggles to understand what is going on.
 
Old 26th September 2011, 12:04 PM   #114
jgazal is offline jgazal  Brazil
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Default Types of neutrinos?

Layman question: Is there so much difference in neutrinos types?

Which characteristics the ones from a supernova differ from the LHC provides?
 
Old 26th September 2011, 12:32 PM   #115
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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There are three types of neutrino: electron type, muon type and tau type. They correspond to the three leptons. There appears to be a correspondence between these six (leptons plus their neutrinos) and the six flavours of quark (u,d,s,c,t,b), although the reason for this is still obscure. There are also anti-neutrinos, although I think it is still unclear whether these are distinct particles or identical to their opposite number.

When a muon decays into an electron, it also emits a muon neutrino and an electron antineutrino. This is similar to beta decay of a nucleon.
 
Old 26th September 2011, 09:13 PM   #116
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I see that out of kind generosity towards the questioner, You had kindly slipped over the fact that neutrinos also like to oscillate, being born as a special flavor, after some distance showing up as another one, like from muon to tau neutrino, or like in the MSW zone in the sun, from electron to muon / tau neutrino
 
Old 26th September 2011, 09:50 PM   #117
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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No, not kindness, but forgetfulness! Yes, neutrinos oscillate to different flavours. This is why the orginal solar neutrino experiment found only a third of the expected number. There are one or two other particles which do this, such as the neutral kaon. This strange behaviour comes straight from quantum mechanics, because (unlike most particles) the mass eigenstates are different from the quantum number eigenstates.

Particle physics went though an interesting stage in the 1970s (when I was briefly involved in it). New things were appearing, such as charm. Then it settled down for a few decades, as the details were filled in (e.g. more quarks) but nothing especially surprising happened. It was mainly more of the same. Now things seem to be hotting up again. Maybe there will be some real advances/changes in physics over the next 10 years.
 
Old 27th September 2011, 01:23 AM   #118
benb is offline benb  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgazal View Post
Layman question: Is there so much difference in neutrinos types?
I'm a self-educated layman myself, and I think the answer is no. Different types can be detected differently, but it looks like they're not hugely different, at least as far as your next question. I found some interesting reading about detecting the Sun's neutrinos here:
Standard Solar Model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgazal View Post
Which characteristics the ones from a supernova differ from the LHC provides?
As I understand it, the difference isn't necessarily between types of neutrinos - they all go at the speed of light (or if the story in this thread is true, 0.0025 percent faster), and they're all VERY weakly interactive with matter. Perhaps some types are more weakly interactive than others, but as far as I know that's not important here.

The really big difference between LHC neutrinos and supernova neutrinos is quantity, by many, many orders of magnitude. I can't find numbers offhand, but this description is fascinating:
Supernova - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
...
In a typical Type II supernova the newly formed neutron core has an initial temperature of about 100 billion kelvin (100 GK), 6000 times the temperature of the sun's core. A further release of neutrinos carries away much of the thermal energy, allowing a stable neutron star to form (the neutrons would "boil away" if this cooling did not occur).[69] These 'thermal' neutrinos form as neutrino-antineutrino pairs of all flavors, and total several times the number of electron-capture neutrinos.[70] About 1046 joules of gravitational energy—approximately 10% of the star's rest mass—is converted into a ten-second burst of neutrinos, which is the main output of the event
I'd like to know how many times of neutrinos that is compared to the burst of neutrinos in this experiment. It would be ten-to-the-N, and I'd like to know what N is. Regardless, it's one hell of a lot of neutrinos.
 
Old 27th September 2011, 04:58 AM   #119
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Old 27th September 2011, 11:20 AM   #120
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb
As I understand it, the difference isn't necessarily between types of neutrinos - they all go at the speed of light (or if the story in this thread is true, 0.0025 percent faster), and they're all VERY weakly interactive with matter. Perhaps some types are more weakly interactive than others, but as far as I know that's not important here.
None of them go at the speed of light. Because of their tiny mass, they were expected to go very slightly slower than the speed of light. Only massless particles go at rhe speed of light. They are different from each other, and have some different reactions, which is how they can be distinguished. Speed is not one of the differences, as it is not a defining characteristic of a particle (or anything else).
 

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