http://www.ultrahighendforum.com/uploads/documents/goldenears.pdf
"audiophiles’ construct their own universe of meaning
around their equipment; they cultivate a distinctive vocabulary and set of attitudes"
... & so do academics
"audiophiles’ construct their own universe of meaning
around their equipment; they cultivate a distinctive vocabulary and set of attitudes"
... & so do academics
Guess you could class me as a meter reader who also listens. Any review is by definition "subjective". But one attribute people often overlook is learned experience. I've said for years (decades actually) that you have to own and listen to a good sound system for at least a year before you even know what one is. I've built three studios from the ground up and at one time had to phase 103 sets of heads a week at a top 40 radio station (back when quality of broadcast sound was an important issue). I've also served as both a Metrology engineer and Senior Metrologist so I've seen and experienced this issue from both sides. I prefer old vinyl over CD's any day. I also know I hear aspects of music that others aren't even aware of. In example I played a used record for my daughter (a product of MP3 culture) and I instantly noticed that the sound quality was horrible. (Squashed record track damaged by repeated play with too heavy a stylus setting). She didn't have a clue what I was talking about until I pulled my own clean copy of the same cut and played it for her. OH... yeah, now I hear the difference!
Some believe CD's are king... I can hear a distinct difference between a factory burned CD and one I cut (burn) myself from a vinyl copy of the same album. I see now that some are paying insane prices for CD players with Tube front ends... To me that's just silly. If it's already crap, a tube front end won't bring it back to life. New vinyl records don't sound as good as old school copies. Yes, it's vinyl, but the sources are all now pretty much digital recording studios. I have friends (no really!) who design and build their own exotic tube amps. I agree they sound great. I've built my own amps and been thrilled by them. Nowadays I'm just as likely to end up listening to a personal MP3 player because I can carry 16 albums in my change pocket. At home I currently use a Nakamichi amp, but am again building my own.
The answer to me is what works for you is valid for you. Everyone is entitled to their own delusions.
Doc
Some believe CD's are king... I can hear a distinct difference between a factory burned CD and one I cut (burn) myself from a vinyl copy of the same album. I see now that some are paying insane prices for CD players with Tube front ends... To me that's just silly. If it's already crap, a tube front end won't bring it back to life. New vinyl records don't sound as good as old school copies. Yes, it's vinyl, but the sources are all now pretty much digital recording studios. I have friends (no really!) who design and build their own exotic tube amps. I agree they sound great. I've built my own amps and been thrilled by them. Nowadays I'm just as likely to end up listening to a personal MP3 player because I can carry 16 albums in my change pocket. At home I currently use a Nakamichi amp, but am again building my own.
The answer to me is what works for you is valid for you. Everyone is entitled to their own delusions.
Doc
Golden ears and meter readings correlate well, according to my own experience. The problem is, to measure right things. What helped me a lot, my work of design of analog synthesizers and guitar effects. When you deliberately create distortions knowing what you are doing, observing results on oscilloscope and hearing the effects, you train your perceptions to recognize such effects. Like, in order to recognize foreign speech you need to learn how to pronounce it. If you can't pronounce something, you don't hear it. For example, English speakers don't hear difference between hard and soft L because they are not trained to pronounce it. The same way, if you are not trained to create distortions, you can't recognize them when you hear distorted sounds.
Yes. But another issue with digital audio is what ISN'T there. Like instantaneous L-R information that is completely lost when the same A/D is time shared between channels (on ether or both recording / reproduction) . Just TRY to digitize an old Steve Miller album that has lots of echo on it... Like "Baby's calling me home". So far my experience is; Can't be done!
Doc
Doc
have you been asleep for 30 years?
audio ADC uses ADC per channel for a few decades now, most often with massive oversampling of 64-256x too
even granting the proposition of having to multiplex a single ADC there is no problem, each channel will have its own anti-alias filter in a proper implementation and be designed and verified that there is no interchannel interaction
I know since I've designed precision strain gage 6 channel amps with just this topology
the time skew would only amount to 3.4 mm air path difference in a 44.1 system, but even that is easily fixed in DSP - I've written the poly phase filter code, followed the signals thru the amp on the 'scope and in the digital data proving the time interpolation alignment
audio ADC uses ADC per channel for a few decades now, most often with massive oversampling of 64-256x too
even granting the proposition of having to multiplex a single ADC there is no problem, each channel will have its own anti-alias filter in a proper implementation and be designed and verified that there is no interchannel interaction
I know since I've designed precision strain gage 6 channel amps with just this topology
the time skew would only amount to 3.4 mm air path difference in a 44.1 system, but even that is easily fixed in DSP - I've written the poly phase filter code, followed the signals thru the amp on the 'scope and in the digital data proving the time interpolation alignment
'Instantaneous' here means beyond the 20kHz sampling-constrained bandwidth?
Presumably here you don't mean 'can't be recorded' but rather 'the playback sounds different from the original' ? Care to describe the difference and what DAC you used to listen?
Tha---, thanks for your input. It is much the same as mine. I can barely tolerate CD's, even played in my car. DVD 24-96k and SACD is a lot better, but not as good as a vinyl record!
It's true that they don't share ADC's anymore, but they still sound marginal. I remember those Steve Miller cuts, however I only have a commercial CD to remember them by. It is interesting that Steve Miller didn't really think much of super hi fi reproduction, himself, but apparently he made a great test record to show the difference. Please keep up the interesting input.
It's true that they don't share ADC's anymore, but they still sound marginal. I remember those Steve Miller cuts, however I only have a commercial CD to remember them by. It is interesting that Steve Miller didn't really think much of super hi fi reproduction, himself, but apparently he made a great test record to show the difference. Please keep up the interesting input.
So just who is this Marc Perlman who coins the term Audiophilia, a thinly veiled description of us as suffering from a pathological affliction. As it turns out he is a graduate of an obscure University with a Phd. Now an Associate Professor in music at Brown University.
Now, I will not trash the mans credentials.....a fate that he has denied those of us within OUR community. He possesses no credentials on the psychological front to make such sweeping statements, thus, his conclusions have no validity.
Myself and others could readily pick apart his entire paper...red marker in hand, pouring over his footnotes.........and noting statements/conclusions that, not so oddly, are devoid of an appropriate footnote. A task that would seem to take an in-ordinate amount of time and effort.....the time and effort he seems to have on-hand. This is to be expected within his field of study perhaps.
In retrospect, perhaps the man, so intimately involved with music, has never been drawn towards this...and so since he cannot attain such a level, seems intent on pulling us down. "If I can't have it , no one can!" . OK, so much for my Psychological take........just doin' what he's doin'.
_____________________________________________________Rick.........
Now, I will not trash the mans credentials.....a fate that he has denied those of us within OUR community. He possesses no credentials on the psychological front to make such sweeping statements, thus, his conclusions have no validity.
Myself and others could readily pick apart his entire paper...red marker in hand, pouring over his footnotes.........and noting statements/conclusions that, not so oddly, are devoid of an appropriate footnote. A task that would seem to take an in-ordinate amount of time and effort.....the time and effort he seems to have on-hand. This is to be expected within his field of study perhaps.
In retrospect, perhaps the man, so intimately involved with music, has never been drawn towards this...and so since he cannot attain such a level, seems intent on pulling us down. "If I can't have it , no one can!" . OK, so much for my Psychological take........just doin' what he's doin'.
_____________________________________________________Rick.........
and what to do when ears say yes, and meter says no
or the other way round
I find it very difficult
its almost 100% certain you will follow your meter
even if your ears say no
its almost impossible to do the opposite of what your meter says
when it happens I usually decide not to use the meter, and instead fully trust my ears
well, I admit to know very little about 'meters' and measurements
but with other stuff, I have never been able to achieve a situation where ears and mind says the same as the meter
its always different
maybe just a bit, but still different
meters are good support
but I still trust my ears more
my speakers are designed solely by listening, and experience ofcourse
maybe thats why I love most of my CD's
which I didn't before when I wasn't able to design and build my own speakers
so, yeah, I say the key is speakers speakers speakers speakers
but thats OT
I have scanned Periman's paper, and while I have a few criticisms, I don't find it much of an attack on audiophiles, especially compared to common criticism leveled here on a regular basis. My greatest concern is the discussion of 'musicality' vs 'accuracy'.
It has been my experience that increased 'accuracy' will reveal other problems in the sources that might actually obsure the enjoyment of the music for its own sake, but when everything is in order, the music comes through even better when 'accuracy' in increased. I, therefore, do not find a disparity between 'accuracy' and 'musicality'.
It has been my experience that increased 'accuracy' will reveal other problems in the sources that might actually obsure the enjoyment of the music for its own sake, but when everything is in order, the music comes through even better when 'accuracy' in increased. I, therefore, do not find a disparity between 'accuracy' and 'musicality'.
and what to do when ears say yes, and meter says no
or the other way round
I guess, doctor appointment is needed in such case. I can imagine talking electronic devices, but talking ears?
As I said, what is located between ears has to be calibrated by measurement devices.
John Curl I know calibrated it well, so he understands now that there is no contradiction between musicality and accuracy.
and that is a fact indeed
but does not always happen, correctly
it could then turn into something less nice
but I still see the issue even when our own skilled guys design stuff
I remember once I chose an IC based preamp over a tube pre
I actually liked the tube pre
but it was very clear that the IC one let a violin play a little 'longer'
the tub pre kind of snapped of the last bit of info
but I would no doubt have been much happier with the tube pre
a violin sounded very good, and right
but I let my brain choose, instead of my hart
maybe I was unconsciously being unfluenced by 'moralising' audiophiles telling me what I should or shouldn't hear
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