A modest proposal....

[ThorstenL]

A modest proposal
for the prevention of the unneccesary debate between objectivists and subjectivists being aburdon for the Moderators and for making them beneficial to Diyaudio

It is a melancholy sight to see thread after thread having to be censored and locked by the hard working moderators, because debate is percieved to be out of hand.

Clearly we have entrenched and fundamentally opposing viewpoints, which may be argued quite seriously scientifically by either side, or may degenerate into a pub brawl, however in neither case any purpose is served, as neither side will change it's views as the result of such debates, the arguments have been endlessly recycled and have not materially changed since the 1980's.

In order to re-direct the energies towards things more gainful for those that frequent DIYA I suggest the implementation of a "Tag" and "Vote" system that offers the following:

1) A thread starter (OP) may tag a thread as "subjectivist viewpoints unwelcome", as "objectivist viewpoints unwelcome" or leave it untagged, that is the thread is open to debate of any viewpoint.

2) Every reader of the thread should be allowed to vote ONCE (but may later change the vote) if a thread should remain at it's status, or be changed to a different status. There should be a quorum for post numbers and readers before such a democratic vote overrides the thread status set by the OP.

3) The rules should make "crossposting", that is posting subjectivist views to a thread marked as "subjectivist viewpoints unwelcome" or the opposite an offence that leads to deletion of posts and to being giving automatically a fixed number minus points.

I hope that the above measures will minimise the friction and need for moderation very much.

Ciao T

[Mooly]

An interesting idea although personally I have to say I find the debates "interesting".

Do you think it would be workable ? Many would post regardless... and most of those that that do, do so in trying to further the arguments... which is what makes it interesting

It is the minority that just don't know when to stop that spoil it for the rest... I don't think the system would work tbh.

[jcx]

censorship of ideas is a bad idea - just follow the forum rules which have contained the probblem successfully to date

avoid the personal attacks

use the ignore button if you are too immature to respond to a particular poster's ideas rather than personality

[pinkmouse]

The problem is that some points of view need challenging, whether objectivist or subjectivist, and open discussion is the best way to do so, and as such, we like to encourage it. diyAudio will never be a forum where any point of view is sacred, and cannot be challenged.

Very occasionally, we will split a thread, such as the EnAble, but not simply because of argument. In that case we created another thread so that discussions on the practical implementations could be split from the theoretical debate.

We like lively, contentious threads. What we don't like is posters who attack personalities, rather than ideas, and that's when we get heavy.

[wintermute]

Hi Thorsten, the biggest problem as I see it is that people can't have a debate without it degenerating into a fight. This is a purely a matter of restraint, or self control if you will.

It doesn't help that there are those who enjoy getting someone to lose their cool, and will do anything they can to provoke it, often cleverly and in subtle ways that not everyone will be able to pick up on.

If everyone paused before writing an immediate heated response when their buttons had been pushed, this would largely be a non-issue (the provokers get bored and move onto easier pastures). However human nature being what it is means that invariably there will be those of us who don't follow this basic rule (and even those of us that do will occasionally falter). I Also would recommend everyone try to analyse why a particular post gets their back up, working out why something makes you angry can be a powerful tool for your own self development

I do think your idea is an interesting one, and I commend you for thinking about it, but I think that in practice it will fall down, and may cause more conflict than it aims to avoid.

I actually made a somewhat similar suggestion a few years back, in an attempt to address this exact issue (when the tweakers sactuary went the way of the dodo), I suggested that perhaps there should be a hard core engineering forum where no subjectivists or newbies were allowed, but when the arguments against this idea were presented, I conceded that it was probably a bad idea.

Tony.

[sofaspud]

pinkmouse stated the situation well. I can appreciate spirited and even heated debate. I can applaud those with convictions even though I may disagree. What we don't need is the "yo mama" stuff.

[shepperd]

A thoughtfull suggestion but it probably will not work. There will always be contentious and contrary people on a forum of this size. As unfortunate and unpleasant as it may be, moderators sign up for the thank-less task of bringing order when egos get the better of manners. I'm a member of one of the longest and richest threads/topics on this forum; the one about tweaking the Marantz CDP's. We NEVER have clashes or personality issues. Everything is conducted with good humour and aimability. Heaven's knows we are on the outer fringe and yet...food for thought?

[ThorstenL]

Hi,

Originally Posted by jcx

censorship of ideas is a bad idea - just follow the forum rules which have contained the probblem successfully to date

This may be debatable.

Please note that my Idea does not suggest a blanket censorship of ideas, but an option for starters and participants of a thread to say "we wish to have a discussion here from a particular set of pre-conceived views" while equally threads can be left (or indeed voted) "open" to all debate where the thread starter or a majority of thread readers desire it to be so.

Originally Posted by jcx

avoid the personal attacks use the ignore button if you are too immature to respond to a particular poster's ideas rather than personality

Even if personal attacks do not happen or are moderated swiftly and evenly, we are still wasting megabytes, mega-minutes etc. the arguments are old, the ideas are old and there is no reconciliation of these two opposing views. So what is the point of debate, except degrading the S/N ratio.

Originally Posted by wintermute

I actually made a somewhat similar suggestion a few years back, in an attempt to address this exact issue (when the tweakers sactuary went the way of the dodo), I suggested that perhaps there should be a hard core engineering forum where no subjectivists or newbies were allowed, but when the arguments against this idea were presented, I conceded that it was probably a bad idea.

I readily concede that any form of ghetto or idea censorship is a bad idea, hence my suggestion to allow a formal system that allows a simple and civilised way to hold discussion in a single space that can be entirely open or focused from a certain viewpoint, in a most base democratic way.

Ciao T

[wintermute]

Originally Posted by ThorstenL

Even if personal attacks do not happen or are moderated swiftly and evenly, we are still wasting megabytes, mega-minutes etc. the arguments are old, the ideas are old and there is no reconciliation of these two opposing views. So what is the point of debate, except degrading the S/N ratio.

Good point I will debate something but if it appears intractable bow out. However the threads do sometimes go on and on and on....

I readily concede that any form of ghetto or idea censorship is a bad idea, hence my suggestion to allow a formal system that allows a simple and civilised way to hold discussion in a single space that can be entirely open or focused from a certain viewpoint, in a most base democratic way.

Ciao T

The voting seems good at first glance, but I'd be concerned that if a group gets together they could disrupt by voting the opposite to the thread starter, and derailing the original intent. What's more, is that it would then be sanctioned because it was voted for "seemingly" democratically.

I thought that the thanks implemented with the new forum software was a good idea, but look what happened to that anything that's implemented can unfortunately be abused.

In the end, I think it all comes down to the fact that we are all individuals, and how we choose to behave makes or breaks the forum. I like to think that for the most part, we have a fantastic community here at diyAudio.

Tony.

[SY]

False dichotomies are not pretty things.