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Old 12th July 2003, 03:24 AM   #1
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Default Rod Elliott on GainCard and others

I was browing around at his site, and here is a link to an article there:

http://sound.westhost.com/madashell8.htm#german

It is a fun reading, especially in light of the recent discussions here on resistor sound and sonic resonance, etc.

Some quotables:

On resistor sound:
Quote:
"What drivel - this implies that these components are either microphonic or frequency dependent under normal audio operating conditions. They are not (apart from the normal capacitive reactance effects, which are well known). "
On the positive reviews on gaincard:
Quote:
"The lunatic who wrote the review is completely, utterly out of his tree. That any magazine would publish such blatant rubbish is reprehensible in the extreme, although to his credit the reviewer did point out that the power ICs used can be bought from Farnell's (a major British component supplier) for about 5 Pounds each! "
On damping / resonance / vibration and their sonic impact:
Quote:
"Vibration and electricity do NOT come from the same energy. They are both energy in their own right, but different forms of energy. One does not automatically create the other - this requires a transducer (by definition, a device to convert one form of energy into another). "
On the short signal path and low component count:
Quote:
"So what? The signal will still have to pass through a metre or more of interconnects, has already travelled through maybe 100 metres of cables in the studio. They seem to have conveniently "forgotten" the number of components in the power opamp in the component count. "
On filtering caps:
Quote:
"As for "If energy supply depends on the capacity of filter/condensers, you can easily lose the freshness of sound" - what on earth is that supposed to mean? Where else are they getting their energy from - the moon? "
On the Gaincard name:
Quote:
"Gaincard indeed - try Gainmoney instead! "
I in particular couldn't stop laughing reading his Power Humpty / Power Dumpty comments. The dude is funny, .

But I will agree with him on a lot of the BS around some of the opamp discussions here. the gainclones are good electronic projects to work on. That's it. I have built two based on the National chips and TI chips and they perform well but not well enough for me to replace my Parasound or an old trusty Kenwood stereo receiver.

Just some fun reading for all gainclone fanatics,
 
Old 12th July 2003, 03:52 AM   #2
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Not to mention the fact, that the guy just made your day
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Old 12th July 2003, 04:02 AM   #3
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Originally posted by Peter Daniel
Not to mention the fact, that the guy just made your day
he does present a lot of convincing arguments, using facts, logic nad science.

you can not say the same about many of his critics, right?
 
Old 12th July 2003, 04:10 AM   #4
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He was correct on two accounts at least. That those op amps sound good and that he "could quite easily make a similar amp (with separate power supply, but without a stupid name), that could sell in the shops for no more than AU$2,500 (about US$1,550)".
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Old 12th July 2003, 04:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by millwood


he does present a lot of convincing arguments, using facts, logic nad science.
I didn't noticed any of the above in the linked article.
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Old 12th July 2003, 06:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel


I didn't noticed any of the above in the linked article.

Totally agree.
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Old 12th July 2003, 06:58 AM   #7
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So is this like the old Tube vs Solid State argument?

The Resistor guys think the IC guys are listening to crap that will never be as good as the previous?

As far as I have heard from poeple the gainclones sound good and have a pheoniminal cost to performance ratio.
 
Old 12th July 2003, 08:19 AM   #8
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Hi!

About influences of stuff like signal length, cable material etc. there are already enough discussions on this board.

What I learned from those discussions is at least one thing: That the people really believing in such material / effects making a difference will never convince the non-believers and vice versa.

R. Elliot is know to take a very "down-to-earth" approach to hifi, and you either take the same road or you don't (or, like me, somewhere in between). For example, capacitance in power supplies (even for his 300W subwoofer amplifier he says that using more than 2 * 10000 uF would be a waste of money), resistor and capacitor materials and so on.

But since his designs are at least reasonably good, even high-enders who believe in parts / materials / ... making a difference can use his stuff in order to try implementing something better, by substituting parts, fine-tuning circuits etc.

And that he accuses 47labs of shameless money-making is right for me, that they are not the only ones out there doing this is widely known (in another field, take a look at real Rolex watches in comparison to SWISS made replicas - which still cost about 2000 $ - even an expert takes a lot of time to tell the difference (since there really is nearly no difference at all), so the rest of those 15000 $ such a watch costs is for the brand alone...

So, let each other live - Rod in his place in the market, 47labs in their's, even Peter in his...

Trying to run a business these days is hard enough as it is...


Bye,

Arndt
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Old 12th July 2003, 08:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rod Elliott

Hi Guys

As someone who lives in the same city as Rod and has crossed swords with him (a slight exxageration), may I say that Rod is a natural skeptic. But I do say that he has a solid background in teaching and is of the 'old school'.

A very good friend of mine, Val, knows Rod much better than I do. According to Val, IF you can make a good case with Rod (and you'd better be up to it) then Rod is not altogether quite as hard set as he might seem.

Certainly Rod knows about my product, the JLTi Hybrid GC, and when I say, with Val's backing, that it ain't half bad (in fact better than that) then I believe Rod appreciates we're not all that mad.

Also, I've got to give Rod his due, he has a right to question, and sometimes he is actually right. I have past experience that tells me that you can soemtimes learn from people, even when you often don't agree with them on many things. Rod is that type of person.

Joe R.
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Old 12th July 2003, 11:06 AM   #10
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I love Rods site, and have learn't nearly everything technical that I know from it. I am using his passive baffle step correction circuit to great effect, and have also built his project 72 Gaincard.

However I would agree with the last post in saying that he is set in his ways and is a measurements man. He has set his face against tube amps and the Zen approach, both of which would be hard to justify if you have heard the magic (despite their measured shortcomings).

I love the man for his ability to cut through the BS and to deliver real knowledge in a simple way, but I take all of his grand pronouncments with a large pinch of salt.

I do however, highly recommend anyone who is struggling with technical issues to pay his site a visit.

Shoog
 

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