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Old 14th July 2003, 09:30 AM   #81
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
Maybe Thorsten can shake hands with Rod now and be friends?
I rather doubt it. It is good to see that nowadays most projects are reasonably credited, a pleasant change from my earlier visits where I observed large amounts of material taken from other sources with little or no modification and without aknowledging sources.

It was my original impressions (admittedly a few years back) when I visited Mr. Elliotts site after being pointed to a "mad as hell" piece and looking at the rest of the site. And yes, my reasoning of "here is ripping other people off yet he is criticising others" came from those impressions. I will safe myself a full research via the web-archive to find when projects aquired aknowledgements etc. maybe others wish to do so.

Sufficient to say that the state of affairs has changed and that my comments about the lack of references and aknowledgement are no longer true at this point in time at large. And indeed, I should have looked closer at the articles THIS time around, an ommision I have now corrected.

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
I think it's not too bad to questioning some business areas in hifi and high-end.
Nor do I.

As you may or may not be aware, I have been on record many times with regards to business practices in High End where underengineered rehashes of yesteryears circuits in fancy packages abound (never mind cables). I do however not call everyone I dislike or disagree with a fraudster.

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
Rod is allways nice in his manners
EXCUSE ME!?



YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING!



Did you actually read most of his "Mad as hell stuff"? I find the approach taken there all but nice in manners.

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
but he isn't silent (like Björn Borg vs John McEnroe) when abuse is poured over him.
Or if he can pour it over others he disagrees with, as evidenced on his website.

And I notice that he always picks upon companies who try genuinely new and different approaches within High End and are (admittedly) at the fringes. Pricing of High End in shops is a result of the distribution structure, which differs from commodity items.

Hence the criticism Mr. Elliott draws on the pricing applies to many other goods and sectors equally. Yet he does not (for example) call a Watch manufacturer who makes and sells watches with profit margins even High End audio cannot dream of fraudulent.

I also fail to see any articles chastising Linn or Jeff Rowland for making Amplifiers with generic IC's in fancy cases and selling them at extraorbitant high end prices that make those he criticises seem actually reasonable. And I think it is clear who makes the "fat cat" profits in this game, not the small guy's like Kimura and Final (or even Rowland), who sell small quantities of mostly handbuild gear.

So, I still take great exception to Mr. Elliotts way of simply declaring anyone he dislikes to be a fraudster and picking there conveniently at those who do not have large legal departments.

Sayonara
 
Old 14th July 2003, 10:33 AM   #82
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Default Re: Reply to Thorsten

Konnichiwa Elliott San,

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
The valve preamp shown is a prototype, and you have absolutely no idea of the circuit, yet claim it is a rip-off ???
My take is based on an "educated guess" based on the layout and arrangement. So, it is not a 2 Valve (ECC83) feedback circuit followed by a Cathode follower then? Fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
The technical specifications are "poor" compared to those obtained from a premium opamp (for example) - for a valve preamp they rival the best I have seen.
Do they? Hardly.

Here is one of the better (by far not best) High End Valve Preamp Specifications and you can get one and measure it to confirm these are accurate:

Frequency response: 0.1Hz-600kHz, +0,-3dB (line),
Voltage gain at 1kHz: 26dB (line),
Slew rate: 15V/µs (line),
THD: less than 0.0005% (line),
Noise: 90dBA below 1V (line),
Input overload: 100V (line),
Input impedance: 50k (line)

It is the CAT SL-1, in production since 1986.

Now lets see what you have come up with:

Distortion < 0.2% (10k load)
Signal to Noise Ratio > 70dB
Maximum input level 10V rms
Maximum gain 18dB / 10dB*
Crosstalk (at 1kHz) - 65 dB
Crosstalk (at 10kHz) -50 dB
Frequency Response 10 Hz - 150 kHz (-1dB)

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
Why are you picking on that particular line? From what I have been able to see, you do not believe in technical specs anyway, so should have been delighted with the fact that they are &quot;poor&quot;.
My point is more subtle than you seem to get.

If others make something that you consider to be "poor" in design or execution and claim however great sonics for their gear and sell it you call them fraudsters. Yet you will happily sell the unsuspecting punter a piece of substandard performing gear with the note "but it sounds good" and that's okay?

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
Project 75 - Referenced to Rane (including link)
We covered that. When I first noticed it there was no link.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
Project 48 - Absolutely untrue - I don't have a copy of the patent, and designed the project using basic principles. The concept is quite simple if one knows anything about electronics.
Okay, in this case I will chalk up the identical values in key areas to "parallel development". However, you mention that the circuit is patented (and the patent not expired IIRC) and it is somewhat hard to believe that with several full image patent databases on the net you did not look at the patent, sorry.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
Project 51 - Generic in the extreme.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
There is no reason (other than the advanced age of the column) to make changes to what I have written
I also see, other than correction for noting that you now present mostly reasonable aknowledgements, no reason to change what I wrote.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
it is not &quot;bad behaviour&quot;, any more than it is considered &quot;bad behaviour&quot; for a movie, theatre or music critic to say that a particular performance is dreadful, and give it a 1 star rating - this is done every day on radio, TV and in newspapers worldwide.
It is however bad behaviour for the critic to in the pages praise his own play and suggest people go there and to have been spotted somewhere at a part when he was supposedly at the paly he just gave very bad marks.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
Perhaps you take exception to this practice as well,
No. I do take exception to your practice of criticising in others what you practice yourself and doing so in a highly insulting manner, without ever having encountered any of the products first hand (not even in a shop or at a show).

Sayonara
 
Old 14th July 2003, 10:33 AM   #83
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I must admit that it's rather unusual to have a debate page but still I don't mind some debate.

I have changed my mind about negative talking at my homepage. At my link page I had a remark about the products at a certain website. The designer got a little about this (my comment was about the looks) so I removed it. From now on I only mention good things and avoid negative talking.

Thorsten, I think you have a hang-up about copyright. Rod has no obligation to reveal any sources for his designs especially if it's not copyrighted or patented.

Thorsten, we know now that you are a little bit disturbed by Rod but you don't have tell everyone about it.

Edit:

Thorsten, you sound like me. 600 kHz isn't always better than 150 kHz! What about the "bad" no-os DAC's This isn't any contest, best figures win!
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Old 14th July 2003, 10:47 AM   #84
rode is offline rode  Australia
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This is getting very silly ... well, it actually reached that point some time ago, but unfortunately Thorsten is like a dog without a bone at the moment.

Quote:
I also fail to see any articles chastising Linn or Jeff Rowland for making Amplifiers with generic IC's in fancy cases and selling them at extraorbitant high end prices that make those he criticises seem actually reasonable. And I think it is clear who makes the "fat cat" profits in this game, not the small guy's like Kimura and Final (or even Rowland), who sell small quantities of mostly handbuild gear.

So, I still take great exception to Mr. Elliotts way of simply declaring anyone he dislikes to be a fraudster and picking there conveniently at those who do not have large legal departments.
I don't go looking for this stuff - I comment on it when someone else points it out, and do not spend my time searching the web for dubious equipment. I don't dislike those I have commented on, I dislike the way they use poetic and often bizarre (and nearly always obfuscating) language, making claims for the product that cannot be substantiated.

I agree with Thorsten that there are many products that are grossly overpriced for what they are, but if I were to try to cover every case of "hi-fraud" I would get nothing else done.

I have noticed that Thorsten's attacks continue unabated - a little subdued perhaps, but continuing regardless. There is nothing that I or anyone else can say that will stop this, since he obviously feels himself to be on a "mission from God".

So be it - please continue ... perhaps you can get yourself banned from the DIY forum yet. There must be some more things about me that you hate, so why not go for broke.
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Old 14th July 2003, 10:59 AM   #85
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa Elliott San,

Quote:
Originally posted by rode
I don't go looking for this stuff - I comment on it when someone else points it out, and do not spend my time searching the web for dubious equipment. I don't dislike those I have commented on, I dislike the way they use poetic and often bizarre (and nearly always obfuscating) language, making claims for the product that cannot be substantiated.

I agree with Thorsten that there are many products that are grossly overpriced for what they are, but if I were to try to cover every case of &quot;hi-fraud&quot; I would get nothing else done.
Well, why then selectively go after specific items? Either you do whish to comment generally, as I often do or you point out specific items as you consider them "that much worse".

You cut loose from the hip against people of which you know nothing first hand, be they reviewers or manufacturers on specific items. Your "Mad" page states:

"Keep watching this space for more examples of Hi-Fraud"

So you are not actively trying to expose alleged fraud? Only if happens to come your way. Great. Once my friends companies are going reasonably well with High end audio gear I shall ask them to bring their competitors to your attentioan, so you can give them a hard time too....

I would have at least expected you to go looking yourself, instead of acting on hear/say by others. I previously questioned your motives for that colum, I do all that much more now.

Quote:
Originally posted by rode

I have noticed that Thorsten's attacks continue unabated
What attacks? I merely continue to point out what I consider hippocracy, duplicity and bad style. You stand by your remarks about others and effectly re-state them, I stand by those I made about you, except those that where made in error. Where is the attack? That I refuse to agree with you?

Quote:
Originally posted by rode

There is nothing that I or anyone else can say that will stop this, since he obviously feels himself to be on a &quot;mission from God&quot;.
I thought you where the "Man with a mission" (namely to expose what you consider "Hi-Fraud", often incorrectly so)?

Quote:
Originally posted by rode

There must be some more things about me that you hate, so why not go for broke.
I do not hate you, I merely find your behaviour in certain, very specific areas intollerable.

Sayonara
 
Old 14th July 2003, 11:19 AM   #86
Previously: Kuei Yang Wang
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
I have changed my mind about negative talking at my homepage. At my link page I had a remark about the products at a certain website. The designer got a little about this (my comment was about the looks) so I removed it. From now on I only mention good things and avoid negative talking.
I never suggested that.

It is one thing to say "The gaincard, with a reasonable profit allowance should cost no more than $ 1000 to make so a sales price of $ 4000 seems inflated". And one might also say "The gaincard uses a generic Amplifier chip in what is essentially a generic application note circuit, so I fail to see where the innovation is". One might pose such questions to the manufacturer. All of that absolutely cricket, precise, to the point and resonable.

To go however and declare the Manufacturer to be fraudster and to make all sorts of insulting claims about those who have reviewed the product is stepping FAR outside the bounds of civility, moreso if I myself manufacture and sell audio and related products.

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
Thorsten, I think you have a hang-up about copyright.
Not COPYRIGHT, but credit. I dislike when people take generic or indeed propriatry circuits and present them as "My work". This does not only apply to Mr. Elliott BTW. I appreciate that not everyone can know about every circuit anyone else has ever designed, but in many cases there obvious precedents. The least one can note is "adopted from generic circuitry".

BTW, this has got nothing to do with seeking recognition myself, I very rarely if ever come up with something that is genuinely new, I do tend to popularise less common approaches that then get (inaccuratly) stuck with my name as originator. So it is not a fear of not being given credit myself (there is little that I can take credit for anyway).

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders

Rod has no obligation to reveal any sources for his designs especially if it's not copyrighted or patented.
Other than a moral one, of course. As he has a obligation to at least reasonably investigate matters upon which he wshes to comment and to keep his moderatly civil.

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders

Thorsten, we know now that you are a little bit disturbed by Rod but you don't have tell everyone about it.
I am not disturbed. As said elsewhere, I find certain specifics of his behaviour intollerable (true, I'm hardly known as tollerant, I especially do not suffer fools).

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders

Thorsten, you sound like me. 600 kHz isn't always better than 150 kHz! What about the &quot;bad&quot; no-os DAC's This isn't any contest, best figures win!
Again, you miss the point. Mr. Elliott criticises others for making and selling equipment with what he considers poor qualities. At the same time he actively markets a product that by his own objectivist criterias and by his own admission provides poor objective performance.

He claimed that his preamp measured performance

"for a valve preamp they rival the best I have seen."

I merely pointed out that it didn't.

BTW, the CAT is a pretty good preamp also on sonic grounds, I could live with it and more interestingly, on his own admission so could Allan Wright.

So, it sounds great AND measures outstandingly well, it means IT IS GOOD.

Sayonara
 
Old 14th July 2003, 11:42 AM   #87
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This thread has clearly gone beyond the point of being childish. It will be closed pending further discussion.

Update:

It has been decided that there will be no sinbin sentences levied as a result of the posts in this thread. This was a difficult decision and could have easily gone the other way. This thread will be permanently closed.

Some of the actions and attitudes exhibited in this thread are, in a word, pathetic. I am grateful to those who tried to steer this thread in the right direction or tried to stop the childishness. For now, please view this thread as an example of how not to act on this forum.
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