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Old 30th June 2003, 11:42 AM   #101
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Default Speaking of "perception" in audio.....

There was a good article to that effect in your bible of all wisdom:

The JAES.....about late 70's.........done by a guy from B&K, I believe.

I suppose that he is unworthy also.

Jocko
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Old 30th June 2003, 01:47 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALW
Mike,

I'm glad you've received something from my contributions here, how you view my opinions here matters not one jot to me, but I wish for the sake of others reading you would type something of substance and stop this over-riding necessity you seem to have to abuse others in many of your replies. I'm sure people reading the threads to which you have contributed will form their own views, I've seen few people coming to your defence though.

Now maybe you could tell me how you set up and conduct a listening test that can PROVE anything - a subject you have continually avoided addressing since I first asked the question.

I'll repeat that in bold, in case you missed it, it is not possible, in a scientific experiment to PROVE objectivist theories by subjectivist results,. Listening tests involve subjective responses, which can have no place in a PROOF.

The reason I have take a 'subjectivist cop-out' is because I cannot PROVE anything to you, nor you to me, it's fundamentally impossible, a fact that seems lost to you.

I am happy in the knowledge though that my system both measures and MORE IMPORTANTLY sounds great.

Now type some bloody replies containing some SUBSTANCE, rather than this constant abuse of the purposes of this forum, I'm fed up with petty attempts at point scoring.

Andy.


Hi ALW,
If you can point out a specific instance where i have abused you i will apologise profusely....and retract instantly....otherwise that particular allegation is yet another cop out clause in my view.

Quote:
Originally posted by AKSA
Mike,

Over time your comments to Fred and Jocko demonstrate much more a desire to prove others wrong than to clearly demonstrate your own veracity, and this highly compromises your credibility.


Again Hugh..............if i am wrong, prove it....show where i have erred, and i will accept it, and apologise unreservedly............... where?

If i have not 'clearly demonstrate your own veracity' as you put it,....again....point out a specific instance......


Jocko has made NO positive adult contribution to anything i have brought up.....nothing...and yet.....has he been censured here?


For instance, i have given a description of 2pole compensation, the pros and cons of the low pass shelving feedback network,(incorrectly attributed to linsley-hood), a definition of the grossly abused word 'sonics', that neither Jocko....or ALW etc, have challanged...and yet....i am described here as the ignorant one.........


All this proves to me that Subjectivism, (unless someone here finally proves otherwise), is like Islamic fundamentalism in many respects......

Call its tenets into legitimate question, and you are promptly accused of blasphemy, arrogance, worthy of a fatwa imposed by the Subjectivist Ayatollahs........


...Is it any wonder then that nw_avphile responsible for this excellent thread here:

http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthrea...istening+tests

......no longer bothers to post on this forum...after being berated...insulted ....called names...etc...by the subjectivist tendency.....for telling the truth...?


Pinkmouse has a point...stick to the technical issues jocko homo et al...,and you'll be fine...
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Old 30th June 2003, 02:30 PM   #103
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Default ....mindless disagreement?? No!

Here is proof that i do not disagree with everyone on this forum:

http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthrea...862#post197862
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Old 30th June 2003, 02:51 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALW
Mike,

I'll repeat that in bold, in case you missed it, it is not possible, in a scientific experiment to PROVE objectivist theories by subjectivist results,. Listening tests involve subjective responses, which can have no place in a PROOF.

Andy.

.....Properly conducted and perforce, scientific blind listening tests prove that differentiating between low THD amps. driven within spec. by listening to them is not possible.....as pointed out perfectly by nw_avphile:

http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthrea...istening+tests
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Old 30th June 2003, 02:56 PM   #105
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This will be my last reponse to you Mike.

You've made enough sarcastic and out of context responses to my posts and others, the mass of DIYAudio members will draw their conclusions by reading the evidence for themselves, I could not be bothered to trawl this thread for specific instances to prove or not my case. You will no doubt view this as a cop-out, I don't care - I will engage in reason with you, when you start reasoning with me by responding to specific requests, from which we ALL might learn something.

I see you have, once again, sidestepped my request for details, choosing to take the subjective / objective stance, something that is of no interest to me whatsoever, I have views far less polarised than you seem to think, but you fail to engage with any substance, hence you get so little in return.

A mutual exchange is just that, you may care to think about why you are viewed as you so obviously are, I doubt though you have the ability to be in any way self-critical.

READ THE BIT IN BOLD IN MY PREVIOUS RESPONSE AND THEN RESPOND WITH A DETAILED PROCEDURE FOR PROVING THE CASE FOR YOU SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT AND MAYBE WE CAN HAVE A SENSIBLE DISCUSSION HERE.

I refuse to engage with you further, until you engage with me in a positive manner.

I care not what view you take of me and your childish name-calling will not encourage me to respond further, I have no interest in your personal views about me, and likewise I will resist in expressing my views of you, despite an overwhelming desire to do so.

My apologies to other DIYAudio forum members for having to read this trash, I have tried to engage in reasoned argument with Mikek, but the evidence above supports my view he is incapable of such input.

Even in reponse to Hugh above he still fails to repond with any content, despite being offered what seems to me an abvious opportunity.

I suggest strongly that we all resist from trying any further, until he provides evidence to the contrary.

Andy.
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Old 30th June 2003, 03:47 PM   #106
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Default In case you can't seem to find that article.....

It was a 2-part jobbie. Must have been important to take up that much space in the JAES. I believe the term "apodization" was a key phrase in it.

For those of you without Prof. Krell's library at hand..........

It concluded by putting forth, that at that moment, we had no way of measuring exactly how a particular distortion element would affect a musical passage, and how it would be perceived in a psychoacoustic sense.

Probably still holds true today.

Sounds pretty subjective to me. Wonder how you-know-who will rationalise the JAES wasting so much space on such trivial, non-scientific drivel.

There, my weekly adult content for the week has been filled.

Jocko
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Old 30th June 2003, 03:52 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALW
.

READ THE BIT IN BOLD IN MY PREVIOUS RESPONSE AND THEN RESPOND WITH A DETAILED PROCEDURE FOR PROVING THE CASE FOR YOU SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT AND MAYBE WE CAN HAVE A SENSIBLE DISCUSSION HERE.

Andy.

see post 212...
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Old 30th June 2003, 05:09 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikek
.....Properly conducted and perforce, scientific blind listening tests prove that differentiating between low THD amps. driven within spec. by listening to them is not possible.....as pointed out perfectly by nw_avphile:

http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthrea...istening+tests
That test has been mathematically/scientifically shown to only show a valid proof that two DUT sound different. It is not capable of proving that 2 DUT sound the same.

dave
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Old 30th June 2003, 09:24 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10


That test has been mathematically/scientifically shown....

where...?
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Old 1st July 2003, 12:46 AM   #110
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