Physical laws, like statute laws, are subject to amendment. However, unlike statute laws, the amendment is often just an extension which leaves the old law intact in its own domain of applicability. For examples: Newton's law of gravitation was extended to general relativity, quantum mechanics was extended to quantum field theory, electrostatics and magnetism were combined into EM (which then had the weak interaction added on via gauge theories, and then the strong interaction). Therefore it is meaningful to talk about physical law. Physicists understand what is meant by that.
Problems come when people either think the usual laws don't apply to them and their audio equipment, or they apply an approximation outside its domain of applicability and then foolishly declare "Theory doesn't work!".
Problems come when people either think the usual laws don't apply to them and their audio equipment, or they apply an approximation outside its domain of applicability and then foolishly declare "Theory doesn't work!".
It is amazing how we can still get so much controversy with just discussing various available caps for quality audio reproduction.
Really high quality caps, like telescopes or automobiles, etc, require superior materials, manufacturing methods, added processing, and so forth. This costs money, and you can take it or leave it. Now, what about the very expensive caps? Well, people I trust often recommend them to me. I shudder at their cost, but not necessarily their quality. Another group of hi end caps has LOTS of DA, and they are made deliberately that way to sound a certain way. They can sound 'good' too, but they are not very accurate.
It is easy to 'rail against' very high markups in caps, or fine wine, but sometimes the price must be paid for the quality, if you demand it.
Really high quality caps, like telescopes or automobiles, etc, require superior materials, manufacturing methods, added processing, and so forth. This costs money, and you can take it or leave it. Now, what about the very expensive caps? Well, people I trust often recommend them to me. I shudder at their cost, but not necessarily their quality. Another group of hi end caps has LOTS of DA, and they are made deliberately that way to sound a certain way. They can sound 'good' too, but they are not very accurate.
It is easy to 'rail against' very high markups in caps, or fine wine, but sometimes the price must be paid for the quality, if you demand it.
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My experience has been that extremely ordinary electronic parts can produce extraordinary sound, as in that the level of audible, disturbing distortion is very low, sufficiently that I can apply the tag "realistic" to the sound. IF the distortion is audible and you haven't the technical means or knowledge to reduce that by circuit or configuration variations, then the answer is to modulate the distortion that you hear, you experiment with myriads of available "sauces" to flavour the perceived anomolies, until it tastes "just right". If the "saucy" parts are very expensive then it probably helps your taste buds appreciate the experience; it's a bit like samplinging a pretty nothing wine, and then your host says, well, actually that's a quite an expensive French wine, and immediately your analytical side goes into overdrive, trying to work out where there is some possible merit in what you're tasting ... 
Frank
Frank
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Kgrlee - you postulate an explanation for the "'improvements" i hear using Relcap/Multicap polystyrene and polypropylene film and foil capacitors. It's wrong.
Let me describe what I hear and what in the capacitor design and construction correlates to the result. (Richard undoubtably has far greater insight and experience as the designer)
I hear a higher impact to the leading edge of a transient ( which is what music is - a collection of transients), a faster recovery, and a more refined structure to the decay of the note using the better quality Relcaps/Muliticaps. Plucked guitar strings or a piano note as an example have greater intial impact, and a more resolved decay structure. These more closely resemble live instruments than the compressed impact and smeared decacy of a capacitor with higher ESR and Da. The technical explantation of the construction and materials used and measurements made of them directly match the improvement I hear.
I don't hear anything that resembles the " hand carved by virgins " construction technique you've proffered. Would i be listening for low level female moaning or ?
Let me describe what I hear and what in the capacitor design and construction correlates to the result. (Richard undoubtably has far greater insight and experience as the designer)
I hear a higher impact to the leading edge of a transient ( which is what music is - a collection of transients), a faster recovery, and a more refined structure to the decay of the note using the better quality Relcaps/Muliticaps. Plucked guitar strings or a piano note as an example have greater intial impact, and a more resolved decay structure. These more closely resemble live instruments than the compressed impact and smeared decacy of a capacitor with higher ESR and Da. The technical explantation of the construction and materials used and measurements made of them directly match the improvement I hear.
I don't hear anything that resembles the " hand carved by virgins " construction technique you've proffered. Would i be listening for low level female moaning or ?
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If you want the 'hand carved by virgins' sound, I should think that you must go to the Mundorf or similar cap. In fact, in a project that I am associated with, the first cap, a typical mylar, was changed to Rel, with great subjective improvement, then 'Mundorf with even a further subjective improvement. I recommended a SERVO to remove the cap completely.
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So, for you, audio electronic is really some kind of cooking, where you play with the sound of spare parts ?
If some need absolute audio transparency, for his caps in the signal path, he better use the less expensive one: the NO CAP, concentrating on good schematic design.
The No wine is not such a good idea, if you want a good dinner.
That was the sens of my first remark. John. You are a name in the audio business. If you want to share your experience, don't you think it would be better to share your innovative schematics, As mister Pass do ? Instead of loosing time on the "esoteric" side ?
Does this mean that if a capacitor has no measurable ESR or DA, it is as good as a RELcap?
BTW, I used to design speaker & mikes for a living. I've been accused of making my speakers sound accurate on my recordings made with my microphones.
Sorry if this was the wrong thing to do. Mea maxima culpa.
PS. My speakers & mikes sound good with other peoples recordings, mikes & speakers too. But my ultimate aim was as above.
You mean RELcaps aren't hand made by virgins?
How can you stand listening to such rubbish?
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Esperado, people ALREADY use my circuits and the ideas that I pushed forward for decades. Sometimes, embarrassingly so, (for them). However, I don't always share my LATEST designs, because I still get a royalty for producing them.
Build a Levinson JC-2 (schematic released in 1977) or a JC-80 (schematic released here, recently), or copy a Parasound product, if you want to waste your time building it, instead of just buying it, and saving yourself both time and money in the process.
What amazes me is WHEN I do introduce a new schematic (from me), I get virtually no response or follow up. Some people don't seem to know an 'advanced' design when they see it, and my very best designs are too difficult for an amateur to build, anyway. Exotic parts selection and matching is a -----! Sorry about that, but I have to make my clients a successful product. '-)
Build a Levinson JC-2 (schematic released in 1977) or a JC-80 (schematic released here, recently), or copy a Parasound product, if you want to waste your time building it, instead of just buying it, and saving yourself both time and money in the process.
What amazes me is WHEN I do introduce a new schematic (from me), I get virtually no response or follow up. Some people don't seem to know an 'advanced' design when they see it, and my very best designs are too difficult for an amateur to build, anyway. Exotic parts selection and matching is a -----! Sorry about that, but I have to make my clients a successful product. '-)
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RELcap does have measurable ESR and DA. All capacitors have them. More or less, with more or less influence depending of the impedance signal level and polarization conditions .
Even a strait line in a PCB have a serial inductance and parasitic caps with the near lines.
Thanks to the work of some valuable engineers (including J. Curl) witch have spend time to measure different capacitors, we know, now, the influence of different dielectrics and types of capacitors (Aluminum electrochemical, tantalum, ceramic, polyester, polypropylene, polystyrene etc) and how they behave.
So the good way is to chose the best cap technology to behave where you want-it in your schematic and tune your schematic (polarization, impedance) to minimize further their defect if you can.
You will not chose the same capacitor type in extreme HF signal path, power rail decoupling, hight current audio low frequency etc...
So talking about the " best capacitance " is a nonsense. Like using a formula one tire for a farm tractor.
I for my part would like to see more of these:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...iscrete-opamp-open-design-19.html#post3163236
You mentioned "Perhaps when the time is right I can put the FIRST stage in, as well, as it is slightly different, and 3dB quieter, or so.
Anybody want to buy a slightly dated phono stage, that sounds pretty good, ..."
Yes, please !
I use to design (or modify existing equipment) and build by myself most of my own home equipment. As you, i believe
. Because the time i spend on it increase my knowledge and experience and is a pleasure in itself. And i prefer my last amp (Current feedback, >1000V/µs, very very low hd and IM) to any commercial amp i know, including the Levinson (i had one of them ).
Like you prefer your last design, i believe. Because they respond to something we are looking for at this moment, one more step.
It is easy to understand why it is not so easy to find people with enough knowledge in electronic to see the beauty of a design at first sight. But it is possible and full of benefit and pleasure. More pleasure to play music with other musicians than to make conferences about music.
Have a look at this thread: [COLOR=#0000FF ]http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/193923-simple-symetrical-amplifier-new-post.html[/COLOR]
to see how a valuable, creative and open minded engineer, full of modesty, can share ideas and designs on this forum and how people around can contribute to the evolution of a project up to a wonderful final realization.
It is an other economical system (open source), different of royalties and traditional business. And respond at the philosophy of a DIYer's forum.
It is in that kind of project that i would like to see you, because i know ( more than you can imagine
your work (including in some professional equipments, Ampex etc. and loved the way they sounded and some ideas in it. And because your experience is unique, like all experiences, and, so, irreplaceable.
We are both old, now. And we do not need more business or money. Time to share what life and work had taught us if we want our experience has some meaning, and recover the enthusiasm of our young years, see what i mean ?
.Yes, matching devices is realy boring... . But, as exotic parts are not in my religion, i' do not spend too much time anymore on this boring part, searching for providers and best deals.
John,
I noticed that you use 1uF mylar in your integrators. Have you ever evaluated polycarbonate or polypropylene at that location? Any sonic improvements or is mylar good enough?
Not directly related to subject being discussed, but someone might find it interesting:
Flicker Noise In CMOS Transistors from Subthreshold to Strong Inversion at Various Temperatures:
www.ee.ucla.edu/~vis/pulica/pub1.pdf
Flicker Noise In CMOS Transistors from Subthreshold to Strong Inversion at Various Temperatures:
www.ee.ucla.edu/~vis/pulica/pub1.pdf
Yes, Esperado, I am old, but I am not wealthy. In fact, I have less in reserve than virtually all my friends and associates. Therefore, I must continue to design for others and live off the royalties that I get for my latest designs.
Publishing early, like patenting a new design idea, does NOT help the limited in resources. The big companies just take your design and run with it, usually not even giving recognition to the originator of the topology. This happened to me 1/3 century ago, when Ortofon took my JC-1 design that was patented and made their own version. The very version that Mark Levinson and I were trying to license to them for about 5 years previously. They just 'laughed' when I objected in writing, but I was helpless. Lesson learned.
Esperado, where is your studio located? Paris? Did or do you know Gunther Loof! I used to work for him, many decades ago.
Publishing early, like patenting a new design idea, does NOT help the limited in resources. The big companies just take your design and run with it, usually not even giving recognition to the originator of the topology. This happened to me 1/3 century ago, when Ortofon took my JC-1 design that was patented and made their own version. The very version that Mark Levinson and I were trying to license to them for about 5 years previously. They just 'laughed' when I objected in writing, but I was helpless. Lesson learned.
Esperado, where is your studio located? Paris? Did or do you know Gunther Loof! I used to work for him, many decades ago.
Good ref! Viswanathan wrote a letter that helped me get a major promotion, for which I am most grateful to this day. Very nice guy.
I had meet him in the Bernard Estardy studio (CBE), so long time ago. Is his still alive ? He was older than I.
OOT, i'm not wealthy myself, and no reserve, A freak and careless life ;-)
I don't own or work in any studio anymore (i'm retired) and i have stopped to work as a free lance sound engineer in the musical area during the 80s.
Bored with disco, samplers, and synthesizers everywhere.
After that, i had worked for the audio movie and TV post production business as a mixer and technical manager, and design equipment for some companies like AKAI (DD1500 project; a well known virtual recording and editing machine), mostly in the digital domain and analog parts around. I had began my life as an engineer in the research and department of the most important HIFI French manufacturer at that time.
I was in head of a big PA company, for a while, too. So many concerts all over Europa.
The interesting part of my life: i was always in the same time in electronic and musical production ... mechanical engineer and pilot in the same time.
End of OOT
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